"List" of Zoanthids that have/don't have palytoxins...?

[BeanAnimal]

Actually you could… you could calm down and quit trying to scare and intimidate folks but you know what. You seem happy up there on your soap box - so be my guest.

That and your laughing emoji are deflections, I assume because you are out of arguments to counter what has been discussed.

In any case, you act as if there is some kind of nefarious agenda here. There is not, but rather the simple act of trying to make sure that participants in this hobby are aware and informed of the risks involved with keeping certain animals, so that they may take the proper precautions and make informed decisions.

As it were, you are not well informed and trying to downplay the dangers of something that is both scientifically and factually well known by others to be a very serious concern. But the question is, why? Nobody is stopping you or attempting to stop you or anybody from keeping these animals.

 

[encrustingacro]

As an aside , I found sure way to tell the difference between Palys vs. Zoa. When you have a tank disaster all Zoas melt, Palys can take the beating….

My experience, not scientifically proven but so far works 100% of the time for me….

I do like Zoas but so far I always end up with Palys….

The most accurate way to tell Zoanthus and Palythoa apart is by the texture/color of their coenenchyme/mesoglea. Zoanthus has a smooth, grey mesoglea, while Palythoa has a rough, light-brown mesoglea due to incorporating sediment into its mesoglea. There are other ways to tell, such as Palythoa having capitulary ridges, but not all Palythoa have those.

The corals in your photo are Zoanthus vietnamensis.

 

[encrustingacro]

I’d be interested to see where you heard this, because Sprung basically says the opposite (look up his MACNA talks, I believe it was 2018).

In my opinion all Zoa/Paly variations should be treated as if they were all equally as dangerous. It does not take much prep to put on gloves and eye glasses when fragging.

I got this from Joe Rowlett's article, posted somewhere in this thread. I would more readily trust the Deeds et al. study mentioned in Rowlett's article than a talk done by Julian Sprung.

I am no fan of that posted but they are correct here.

Are you talking about me or @BeanAnimal being correct? Also, correct about which thing? Sorry; the wording confuses me a little bit.

 

[littlebigreef]

That and your laughing emoji are deflections, I assume because you are out of arguments to counter what has been discussed.

In any case, you act as if there is some kind of nefarious agenda here. There is not, but rather the simple act of trying to make sure that participants in this hobby are aware and informed of the risks involved with keeping certain animals, so that they may take the proper precautions and make informed decisions.

As it were, you are not well informed and trying to downplay the dangers of something that is both scientifically and factually well known by others to be a very serious concern. But the question is, why? Nobody is stopping you or attempting to stop you or anybody from keeping these animals.

I can tell you’re an accomplished keyboard warrior who’s never lost an online argument. That’s fine, you believe what you want.

We are in agreement that folks need to exercise due diligence in handling all zoas and palys. That’s about where the agreement ends.

My problem with you is that your brand of zealotry and hyperbole are off putting to new reefers and folks considering adding zoas. They read this nonsense and think that adding these corals to their display puts every living thing in their home in peril and that’s simply not the case. It’s a shame because there no other corals that compare to zoas (in particular) to color, diversity and flexibility.

That’s it, I’m done -

 

[BeanAnimal]

The corals in your photo are Zoanthus vietnamensis.

How exactly can you be sure of the identity (let alone toxicity) without DNA and/or direct confirmation of the lineage, especially from a photo posted on the internet?

I find that somewhat hard to accept, even if this is your passion, hobby or field of expertise. I am open to your response.

Most of the studies that I have read indicate that last common ancestor has a lot to do with toxicity, but because so many of these corals are so similar, identification of actual lineage without DNA is virtually impossible.

 

[Spare time]

Link to the article or paper? I wouldn't mind having a read.

I'll hop back on later and link it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I can tell you’re an accomplished keyboard warrior who’s never lost an online argument. That’s fine, you believe what you want.

Personal insults are not a valid form of debate. Please stick to the topic at hand or refrain from responding.

FWIW, I win arguments because I come armed with facts and logic and if I don't have those in hand, I don't argue or if proven wrong, I admit my error and bow out. It has nothing to do with a keyboard.

My problem with you is that your brand of zealotry and hyperbole are off putting to new reefers and folks considering adding zoas.

Please specifically point out the hyperbole? If the real risks do concern people and it puts them off, that is for good reason and their informed decision.

Downplaying the risk to have more companions, or simply because you don't believe them or understand them is rather self-serving, if not wholly irresponsible, good intentioned or not.

When you can factually indicate that the risks that I and my "brand" have overstated, please do so.

They read this nonsense and think that adding these corals to their display puts every living thing in their home in peril

Because, if precautions are not taken, it actually very much does put every living thing in their home in peril.

The point, from jump, was that if you knew for sure that you could reliably identify which corals were toxic and which were not, then you could easily not worry about risks. The problem (as reiterated numerous times) is that we don't have a reliable way for the typical reef keeper to identify what is a minor risk and what will land them or their kids, etc. in the ICU or kill them with one unlucky squirt.

 

[Lebowski_]

I got this from Joe Rowlett's article, posted somewhere in this thread. I would more readily trust the Deeds et al. study mentioned in Rowlett's article than a talk done by Julian Sprung.


Are you talking about me or @BeanAnimal being correct? Also, correct about which thing? Sorry; the wording confuses me a little bit.

That was a good article, but this point is what Sprung and many others drive home when discussing Zoa/Paly safety:

The taxonomy of the genus is currently in a state of flux, with many species having been synonymized and others likely awaiting description. This makes the difficult task of identifying the truly toxic species that much more challenging, as we may not yet understand all of the diversity present here.

One thing I know for sure is I stay the hell away from any of the big "button" palys that are yellowish/tan/green.

Who would choose to put this in their tank in the first place!?

 

[BeanAnimal]

That was a good article, but this point is what Sprung and many others drive home when discussing Zoa/Paly safety:

None of them are going to take your point or acknowledge the facts or logic, not matter how you present it to them or how many scientific sources and first hand horror stories that you provide.

Given this conversation and numerous like it, it may be best to just talk past them and present the rest of the folks following along the facts and resources to at least be make an informed decision if they choose to do so.

Who would choose to put this in their tank in the first place!?

I assert that the majority of people with any paly or zoa are blissfully ignorant that there is any danger at all, let alone acute danger. So little red and green frilly zoas or huge green-brown buttons, most people just don't know.

 

[littlebigreef]

@SpyC for the win. Its a good and concise read. Here's the cliffnotes.

 

[BeanAnimal]

@SpyC for the win. Its a good and concise read. Here's the cliffnotes.

You are grossly missing the point.

There is absolutely no dispute that there are paly’s and zoa’s that carry no palytoxin. We all accept that and have for decades.

The issue is that there are as many that do carry the toxin in extremely dangerous concentrations and there is no reliable way for any of us to differentiate between toxic and on-toxic. Full stop.

Palytoxin is one of the most dangerous neurotoxins known to man. There are numerous documented cases in this hobby of severe injury to people, pets and fish as a result of exposure. This is indisputable.

Therefore, logically one should treat them all with the same caution, as the risk of error caries potential severe health consequences.

Nobody is trying to take your coral away from you, but we are trying to prevent your lack of understanding and resulting advice from harming other people.

P.S. if you post a source, make sure that you contextually understand it. What you underlined in blue is literally offset on both sides with lengthy discussion indicating the very fact that there is a high degree of uncertainty in identification. Therefore, they couldn’t determine lineage or toxicity for some due to lack of data. The broader point being that looks alone do not dictate lineage or toxicity. To put it bluntly, the very data you cited proves my point and discredits yours.

 

[encrustingacro]

How exactly can you be sure of the identity (let alone toxicity) without DNA and/or direct confirmation of the lineage, especially from a photo posted on the internet?

I find that somewhat hard to accept, even if this is your passion, hobby or field of expertise. I am open to your response.

Most of the studies that I have read indicate that last common ancestor has a lot to do with toxicity, but because so many of these corals are so similar, identification of actual lineage without DNA is virtually impossible.

Idk how to explain how I identify it; Z. vietnamensis just looks like that. Larger polyps, often with bilateral markings. Z. vietnamensis morphs include Sunny Ds and Armor of Gods.

 

[mdpitts]

As an aside , I found sure way to tell the difference between Palys vs. Zoa. When you have a tank disaster all Zoas melt, Palys can take the beating….

My experience, not scientifically proven but so far works 100% of the time for me….

I do like Zoas but so far I always end up with Palys….

Hi, I’m curious to know the names of the above and also the ones in your profile picture. They are beautiful.

 

[mdpitts]

Actually you could… you could calm down and quit trying to scare and intimidate folks but you know what. You seem happy up there on your soap box - so be my guest.

Actually you could… you could calm down and quit trying to scare and intimidate folks but you know what. You seem happy up there on your soap box - so be my guest.

I think you should calm down. As a newbie to reefing I find this all very interesting and I want to learn as much as I can. I believe I bought palythoas before I had any knowledge about palytoxin. Great for beginners, easy to grow etc. Knowlege is never something you should mock and it’s not fear mongering. @BeanAnimal doesnt need to calm down and I’m thankful that there are respected members on here who care to share their knowledge so everyone else can do with it what they will.

 

[mdpitts]

That was a good article, but this point is what Sprung and many others drive home when discussing Zoa/Paly safety:



One thing I know for sure is I stay the hell away from any of the big "button" palys that are yellowish/tan/green.

Who would choose to put this in their tank in the first place!?

Ha! I agree. This photo makes me cringe. I wonder sometimes when I see photos of tanks with a lot of these if the person is color blind (said half jokingly) because there are just so many beautiful zoas/palys to be had. They are the reason I wanted a saltwater tank. But, I’m glad to now know that caution should be taken.

 

[elysics]

Idk how to explain how I identify it; Z. vietnamensis just looks like that. Larger polyps, often with bilateral markings. Z. vietnamensis morphs include Sunny Ds and Armor of Gods.

How do you know that they are morphs and not distinct species?

An important point is that largely, scientists don't care or don't have the funding to look at these so we don't really know whether what you think is Z. vietnamensis is one species, 5 species, 100 species, that just don't have a name yet.

And a side effect of that is you shouldn't assume they all behave the same

 

[BeanAnimal]

Idk how to explain how I identify it;

That means that you are guessing; not making a positive identification.

No matter how many you have looked at or how many names and features you memorize you can't tell with certainty if what you are looking at is toxic or not, especially from a photo, let alone "training" other hobby members to do so.

As we know, those who study these for a living can't sort it out without DNA testing. There are too many close lineages. The very sources that the other guy cited clearly point that out, as does the somewhat recent PLTX study by sawelew, et al. Given your interest, I do suggest further study, especially regarding the morphology.

 

[Pod_01]

Hi, I’m curious to know the names of the above and also the ones in your profile picture. They are beautiful.

One is SunnyD (in the profile picture as well), it shows how much colour can shift. The other is Everlasting Gobstoppers… They were some of the first corals I got.

Unfortunately it seems that my filefish has taken liking to the Everlasting Gobstopper and they been closed up for couple weeks now. I hope they can recover.

 

[BeanAnimal]

One is SunnyD (in the profile picture as well), it shows how much colour can shift. The other is Everlasting Gobstoppers… They were some of the first corals I got.

And that is just because that is what somebody said they were because that is what somebody told them or named them, so and and so on! In reality none of it can be easily verified either without DNA

Unfortunately it seems that my filefish has taken liking to the Everlasting Gobstopper and they been closed up for couple weeks now. I hope they can recover.

Sometimes gentle persuasion can change a fishes behavior.

 

[Reefer Matt]

I deal with dozens of zoa frags routinely. I have around 150 of them or so right now. I am not aware of any way to tell what concentration of palytoxin is present in them, if any. My suggestion is to always exercise caution and respect for these animals. I think people mainly run into problems when they boil liverock or something extraordinary like that. But simply keeping them in a tank doesn’t pose a high risk, imo.