"List" of Zoanthids that have/don't have palytoxins...?

[elysics]

And honestly, bacterial or viral infections combined with ugly cuts from sharp shells and skeletons and broken worm tubes are just as nasty if not more than palytoxin. Just be careful in general

 

[Cell]

I think all zoas/palys should be handled with care and PPE used, but they need not be feared to the level some people do. If palytoxin poisoning happened easily, we would see way more cases of it. We have many vendors/hobbyists chopping up zoas all day every day.

 

[Pod_01]

And that is just because that is what somebody said they were because that is what somebody told them or named them, so and and so on! In reality none of it can be easily verified either without DNA

That is correct, my original reply stated (these were sold to me under the following names etc…). I figured I don’t need full legal disclosure. I am ok if the name is wrong.
Lot of corals are purchased under a name and many times it is not the correct name and some cases coral… These days I usually buy what I like and don’t keep the names any more. I am not into retail, fragging etc… Since those I got number of years back I recorded the names so I was able to share them.

Names are nice to prevent duplicate, especially when paying $100+ but I lost track now so I don’t pay $100+ any more….

Sometimes gentle persuasion can change a fishes behavior.

Please do tell… I do like the Palys/Zoas so I am interested in knowing what might work. The filefish was model citizen but recently took liking to these and my Duncan coral.

I would love to alter the behaviour. It was known risk but I do love the filefish it decimated the aiptasia population. Interesting it is not interested in the Sunny D…. Curious if it goes after colour, taste or some toxins it likes….

 

[BeanAnimal]

That is correct, my original reply stated (these were sold to me under the following names etc…). I figured I don’t need full legal disclosure. I am ok if the name is wrong.

ohh certainly - just putting it in context he conversation.

Please do tell… I do like the Palys/Zoas so I am interested in knowing what might work. The filefish was model citizen but recently took liking to these and my Duncan coral

I would love to alter the behaviour. It was known risk but I do love the filefish it decimated the aiptasia population. Interesting it is not interested in the Sunny D…. Curious if it goes after colour, taste or some toxins it likes….

No idea what it goes after. You can move stuff around and gentle taps on the glass or harassment with a tool can work sometimes. Sometime not

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think people mainly run into problems when they boil liverock or something extraordinary like that.

That is the context here... that is not the case. Most serious incidents have nothing to do with boiling rock. Most of the reports are simple exposures due to a squirt, an open cut, or fragging and touching ones face, etc.

But simply keeping them in a tank doesn’t pose a high risk, imo.

Any time they are manipulated there is a risk, especially if done so without gloves and goggles.

Safety should not be taken for granted.

 

[encrustingacro]

How do you know that they are morphs and not distinct species?

An important point is that largely, scientists don't care or don't have the funding to look at these so we don't really know whether what you think is Z. vietnamensis is one species, 5 species, 100 species, that just don't have a name yet.

And a side effect of that is you shouldn't assume they all behave the same

I'd have to look into the literature for this one, but I'm pretty sure they have done molecular analysis on Zoanthus. I'd have to ask Joe Rowlett.

That means that you are guessing; not making a positive identification.

No matter how many you have looked at or how many names and features you memorize you can't tell with certainty if what you are looking at is toxic or not, especially from a photo, let alone "training" other hobby members to do so.

As we know, those who study these for a living can't sort it out without DNA testing. There are too many close lineages. The very sources that the other guy cited clearly point that out, as does the somewhat recent PLTX study by sawelew, et al. Given your interest, I do suggest further study, especially regarding the morphology.

No, I'm definitely sure it's Z. vietnamensis. I also mentioned partially the features of vietnamensis. As mentioned above, I'm pretty sure they have done at least some genetic testing and partially delimited the species boundaries.

 

[BeanAnimal]

And honestly, bacterial or viral infections combined with ugly cuts from sharp shells and skeletons and broken worm tubes are just as nasty if not more than palytoxin. Just be careful in general

Two very different things, but yes viral and bacteria infections are something else that can be serious or deadly.

However, most people with healthy immune systems are fairly safe from the bacterial and viral threat, the palytoxin doesn't care.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No, I'm definitely sure it's Z. vietnamensis. I also mentioned partially the features of vietnamensis. As mentioned above, I'm pretty sure they have done at least some genetic testing and partially delimited the species boundaries.

You can't determine lineage from a photo, or for that matter of the coral was laying on your desk.

As I said, while you may have memorized numerous features and names, looks alone do not differentiate the species, where it came from or who its ancestors are or if it does or does not produce palytoxin or at what concentration.

Insisting that you can is silly and you are giving yourself far too much credit.

 

[encrustingacro]

You can't determine lineage from a photo, or for that matter of the coral was laying on your desk.

As I said, while you may have memorized numerous features and names, looks alone do not differentiate the species, where it came from or who its ancestors are or if it does or does not produce palytoxin or at what concentration.

Insisting that you can is silly and you are giving yourself far too much credit.

Just because you cannot does not necessarily mean other people can't either. And as far as I know, Zoanthus species are relatively well-defined morphologically. I use Rowlett's Indo-Pacific Corals for an ID guide.

 

[Reefer Matt]

That is the context here... that is not the case. Most serious incidents have nothing to do with boiling rock. Most of the reports are simple exposures due to a squirt, an open cut, or fragging and touching ones face, etc.


Any time they are manipulated there is a risk, especially if done so without gloves and goggles.

Safety should not be taken for granted.

Of course proper precautions should be taken. However,imo, simply buying a frag and putting it in your tank isn’t a high risk evolution.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Just because you cannot does not necessarily mean other people can't either.

It has nothing to do with me. You can't determine lineage from a photo and therefore can't determine toxicity. Full Stop.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Of course proper precautions should be taken. However,imo, simply buying a frag and putting it in your tank isn’t a high risk evolution.

Any time you handle them, there is a risk, especially out side of the tank. You simply don't know if what you are handling is toxic or to what level. Just treat them all as if they were toxic and act accordingly, not different than dealing with a firearm, always understand its potential and treat it as if it were loaded.

 

[elysics]

I'd have to look into the literature for this one, but I'm pretty sure they have done molecular analysis on Zoanthus. I'd have to ask Joe Rowlett.


No, I'm definitely sure it's Z. vietnamensis. I also mentioned partially the features of vietnamensis. As mentioned above, I'm pretty sure they have done at least some genetic testing and partially delimited the species boundaries.

Yes they have done molecular analysis on some. Not on all of the hundreds or thousands in the hobby.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes they have done molecular analysis on some. Not on all of the hundreds or thousands in the hobby.

Exactly and to that end, how does one use a photo, or even in person eyeballs to determine what they are looking at? (Rhetorical).

 

[mdpitts]

One is SunnyD (in the profile picture as well), it shows how much colour can shift. The other is Everlasting Gobstoppers… They were some of the first corals I got.

Unfortunately it seems that my filefish has taken liking to the Everlasting Gobstopper and they been closed up for couple weeks now. I hope they can recover.

Oh that's great to know. Those are both on my wish list. Thanks!

 

[encrustingacro]

It has nothing to do with me. You can't determine lineage from a photo and therefore can't determine toxicity. Full Stop.

Yes, you can usually determine species from photos. Refer to Rowlett's Indo-Pacific Corals book for a guide. Plus, Zoanthus contains little to no Palytoxin, so any Zoanthus should be fine.

 

[The_Paradox]

Yes, you can usually determine species from photos. Refer to Rowlett's Indo-Pacific Corals book for a guide. Plus, Zoanthus contains little to no Palytoxin, so any Zoanthus should be fine.

I identify them by taste. They all have a distinct mouth feel.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, you can usually determine species from photos. Refer to Rowlett's Indo-Pacific Corals book for a guide. Plus, Zoanthus contains little to no Palytoxin, so any Zoanthus should be fine.

You can no more positively identify zoantharians by a photo than you can identify the country of birth of a person by a photo or what disease they genetically carry. You can make semi-educated guesses based on some features, but can't be sure.

Research over the last 30 years has clearly shown that there are a large number of ancestral similarities between Zoanthus and Palythoa and that many of the species spread throughout the Indo-Pacific and Atlantic are siblings that are impossible to differentiate without genetic data, but can/do greatly differ in toxicity. To that end, a very tiny fraction of specimens have been studied for the presence of palytoxin. And (again) YOU can't tell by a photo if a particular specimen has it or does not.

You are claiming (repeatedly) to know more than the very scientists that study these animals, and offering misguided safety advice based on your self appointed expertise and a picture book under your arm.

I honestly think you mean well and are clearly impassioned by these animals, but given what we do know and what we have been told that we don't yet know (by science) your advice is demonstrably irresponsible and gives credence to the age old saying that a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing. That fact is evidenced by the number of members parroting your views.

I think at this point we have come full circle.

 

[encrustingacro]

You can no more positively identify zoantharians by a photo than you can identify the country of birth of a person by a photo or what disease they genetically carry. You can make semi-educated guesses based on some features, but can't be sure.

The Indo-Pacific Zoanthus morphospecies are pretty well-defined. Z. sansibaricus has small polyps, often with concentric patterning. Z. vietnamensis occurs from the WIO to SEA and has larger polyps on a longer stalk with an exert mouth, often with bilateral markings. Z. kuroshio occurs in the Pacific islands east of maritime SEA, and is similar to Z. kuroshio except in that it (usually) is "embedded in a thick coenenchyme," similar to Palythoa tuberculosa. Z. gigantus has the largest polyps out of the Zoanthus, and is identified by white striations on the capitularies of the polyp. You can also refer to iNat OBs to get a feel for these species.

Research over the last 30 years has clearly shown that there are a large number of ancestral similarities between Zoanthus and Palythoa and that many of the species spread throughout the Indo-Pacific and Atlantic are siblings that are impossible to differentiate without genetic data, but can/do greatly differ in toxicity. To that end, a very tiny fraction of specimens have been studied for the presence of palytoxin. And (again) YOU can't tell by a photo if a particular specimen has it or does not.

Do you have a source for Zoanthus species being totally unable to be told apart without genetic data? Z. vietnamensis and Z. kuroshio may be difficult to tell apart, but Z. sansibaricus and Z. vietnamensis can clearly be told apart. The Indo-Pacific and Atlantic sibling species can be told apart by locality. While the Deeds et al. study did not have study large number of specimens, one would still expect some Zoanthus in the study to turn up with palytoxin if Zoanthus did contain a significant amount of it, but none of the Zoanthus turned up with any. I am not claiming to be able to tell whether or not a Zoantharian contains palytoxin just by looking at it; I am saying that according to the study, Zoanthus contains little to no palytoxin. I have not said anything about Palythoa, because it is true that there are some cryptic Palythoa species that contain palytoxin.

You are claiming (repeatedly) to know more than the very scientists that study these animals, and offering misguided safety advice based on your self appointed expertise and a picture book under your arm.

I am not claiming to know more than scientists; I am identifying the morphospecies, which are clearly defined. Yes, it may be true that there may be unresolved genetic issues within Zoanthus (such as with Z. kuroshio and Z. vietnamensis), but that does not take away from the fact that the morphospecies are well-defined.

 

[littlebigreef]

The Indo-Pacific Zoanthus morphospecies are pretty well-defined. Z. sansibaricus has small polyps, often with concentric patterning. Z. vietnamensis occurs from the WIO to SEA and has larger polyps on a longer stalk with an exert mouth, often with bilateral markings. Z. kuroshio occurs in the Pacific islands east of maritime SEA, and is similar to Z. kuroshio except in that it (usually) is "embedded in a thick coenenchyme," similar to Palythoa tuberculosa. Z. gigantus has the largest polyps out of the Zoanthus, and is identified by white striations on the capitularies of the polyp. You can also refer to iNat OBs to get a feel for these species.


Do you have a source for Zoanthus species being totally unable to be told apart without genetic data? Z. vietnamensis and Z. kuroshio may be difficult to tell apart, but Z. sansibaricus and Z. vietnamensis can clearly be told apart. The Indo-Pacific and Atlantic sibling species can be told apart by locality. While the Deeds et al. study did not have study large number of specimens, one would still expect some Zoanthus in the study to turn up with palytoxin if Zoanthus did contain a significant amount of it, but none of the Zoanthus turned up with any. I am not claiming to be able to tell whether or not a Zoantharian contains palytoxin just by looking at it; I am saying that according to the study, Zoanthus contains little to no palytoxin. I have not said anything about Palythoa, because it is true that there are some cryptic Palythoa species that contain palytoxin.


I am not claiming to know more than scientists; I am identifying the morphospecies, which are clearly defined. Yes, it may be true that there may be unresolved genetic issues within Zoanthus (such as with Z. kuroshio and Z. vietnamensis), but that does not take away from the fact that the morphospecies are well-defined.

Well said.

For anyone else interested in reading here’s a good piece with pics, Latin and trade names, and citations. It covers the dispersal of zoanthus, redundancies in taxonomy, and distinguishing morphological features of the 12 most encountered strains in the trade.

Identifying Zoanthids

Identify This: Zoanthids Whether It’s the Scientific Name or the Variety Name of a Particular Coral, Reef Aquarists Want to Be Able to Identify What They Have in Their Tanks.…

cflas.org

If you’ve worked hands on with these corals long enough you can recognize the differences between zoanthus sp. and palythoa.