Live rock? Is it worth the risk?

[tharbin]

I don't think the discussion about living/live/cured/seasoned/dead/artificial/other rock as a part of the active aquarium should be lumped together with the initial cycling of the tank.

Today there are a number of suitable products available with more than adequate instructions to help someone with even the most rudimentary understanding of the "Nitrogen Cycle" successfully cycle a tank. Live/living rock makes it easier or maybe provides more instant gratification but even a hunk of shrimp and a dose of patience will get you there.

The issue comes up AFTER the initial cycle. The relative lack of competitive organisms beyond the nitrifying bacteria is what can discourage a newbie. It is hard for someone who just spent days or weeks getting to where they can add fish to suddenly see brown dust all over their pretty new tank. Their first inclination is usually to find some miracle cure to dump in.

With rock that contains a diverse bio-load of organisms, while you may still get diatom/cyano/dino blooms, the blooms will usually be less severe because there are other organisms competing for the same nutrients. In a dry/artificial rock scenario you only have the few opportunistic organisms that have been introduced accidently through stocking/food/in-the-air-around-you and the few you purposely introduced to cycle the tank competing for nutrients.

The nitrogen cycle is only one, albeit an essential one, of the cycles that fuel an aquarium system. Dry/dead/artificial rock and bacteria cultures help with one cycle. Live/living rock helps with most of the cycles.

 

[Tankandspank]

I don't think the discussion about living/live/cured/seasoned/dead/artificial/other rock as a part of the active aquarium should be lumped together with the initial cycling of the tank.

Today there are a number of suitable products available with more than adequate instructions to help someone with even the most rudimentary understanding of the "Nitrogen Cycle" successfully cycle a tank. Live/living rock makes it easier or maybe provides more instant gratification but even a hunk of shrimp and a dose of patience will get you there.

The issue comes up AFTER the initial cycle. The relative lack of competitive organisms beyond the nitrifying bacteria is what can discourage a newbie. It is hard for someone who just spent days or weeks getting to where they can add fish to suddenly see brown dust all over their pretty new tank. Their first inclination is usually to find some miracle cure to dump in.

With rock that contains a diverse bio-load of organisms, while you may still get diatom/cyano/dino blooms, the blooms will usually be less severe because there are other organisms competing for the same nutrients. In a dry/artificial rock scenario you only have the few opportunistic organisms that have been introduced accidently through stocking/food/in-the-air-around-you and the few you purposely introduced to cycle the tank competing for nutrients.

Can you get around these blooms of algae by creating a more diverse ecosystem in your tank in the form of macroalgae's or a chaeto refugium as a beginner to outcompete the diatoms/cyano/dino?

 

[Borat]

Have a reef tank - is it worth the risk?

 

[tharbin]

Can you get around these blooms of algae by creating a more diverse ecosystem in your tank in the form of macroalgae's or a chaeto refugium as a beginner to outcompete the diatoms/cyano/dino?

I don't think you can completely eliminate them. They happen on a reef as well. Adding a refugium or macro algae can help but may overcomplicate things for someone still learning the basics. They both have lots of benefits for a balanced system but I would take it, as well as everything else, slowly.

Live/living rock will help a lot all on its own. For instance, tunicates and sponges will compete with the diatoms for the free silica.

 

[ScottB]

I don't think the discussion about living/live/cured/seasoned/dead/artificial/other rock as a part of the active aquarium should be lumped together with the initial cycling of the tank.

Today there are a number of suitable products available with more than adequate instructions to help someone with even the most rudimentary understanding of the "Nitrogen Cycle" successfully cycle a tank. Live/living rock makes it easier or maybe provides more instant gratification but even a hunk of shrimp and a dose of patience will get you there.

The issue comes up AFTER the initial cycle. The relative lack of competitive organisms beyond the nitrifying bacteria is what can discourage a newbie. It is hard for someone who just spent days or weeks getting to where they can add fish to suddenly see brown dust all over their pretty new tank. Their first inclination is usually to find some miracle cure to dump in.

With rock that contains a diverse bio-load of organisms, while you may still get diatom/cyano/dino blooms, the blooms will usually be less severe because there are other organisms competing for the same nutrients. In a dry/artificial rock scenario you only have the few opportunistic organisms that have been introduced accidently through stocking/food/in-the-air-around-you and the few you purposely introduced to cycle the tank competing for nutrients.

The nitrogen cycle is only one, albeit an essential one, of the cycles that fuel an aquarium system. Dry/dead/artificial rock and bacteria cultures help with one cycle. Live/living rock helps with most of the cycles.

We are saying the same thing. You just said it better.

 

[ScottB]

Can you get around these blooms of algae by creating a more diverse ecosystem in your tank in the form of macroalgae's or a chaeto refugium as a beginner to outcompete the diatoms/cyano/dino?

In the longer run a refugium is a great way to manage excess nutrient. In the short run, it is less of a viable competitor for surface area. That is the challenge of a dead rock start. There is a lack of bacterial film, film algae, coralline or tons of other microorganisms.

 

[Forty-Two]

Can you get around these blooms of algae by creating a more diverse ecosystem in your tank in the form of macroalgae's or a chaeto refugium as a beginner to outcompete the diatoms/cyano/dino?

There is some evidence - although it needs more research and work - that perhaps the best method is in fact to cycle and put in corals immediately of a significant volume (maybe 2+ corals per 10g? Who knows) which come with their own biomes and will outcompete the ugly stuff we don’t want - however this topic is for another thread I think.

 

[Ghost25]

Can you get around these blooms of algae by creating a more diverse ecosystem in your tank in the form of macroalgae's or a chaeto refugium as a beginner to outcompete the diatoms/cyano/dino?

It's not as simple as less nutrients = better. I used live rock from the ocean and struggled with dinos and hair algae after adding macroalgae. You can have the same problems even while feeding very little. My tank has mostly stabilized, and it did so faster than my first tank with dry rock. But I lost a reasonable number of corals in the process. Inconsistent kalk dosing was probably a factor as well.

 

[paul barker]

I look at it like this it's like building a house in a in a 6 month or a year live rock is fast and you can build a home for your fish and corals but you can put things in you tank you don't and it takes years to fix them day rock it seems like your tank for ever to be able to move in I got 100 lbs of dry rock for my 180 put it in a 55 gal tank with 2 pieces of live from my old tank put fish in the 55 it's been one year now the 180 is up and running so far so good letting it set with the sand and rock for a month before I move the fish and coral over

 

[G Santana]

Yes

 

[GrampsReef]

I just started my 55 gallon tank on October 25th with 50 pounds of live rock. Added another 30 pounds on October 29th. My take finished its cycle on November 5th (maybe sooner). I added fish on November 8th after a 10% water change. Rechecked all parameters on November 9th and everything is right where it should be. I cannot say live rock is the way to go but I would do it again.

I made a mistake. The cycle was not complete even though the parameters were all where they should be.

 

[Ls7corvete]

I have been struggling getting my tank started with dry rock for the past year, fading corals, dino and algae outbreaks.

I finally gave up and ordered some live rock. Only to find aptasia a few days later.

The live rock has been banished to the qt. And now I'm uncertain what the best path is.

If I could go back in time, I would find a cheap neglected used tank with rock to buy. The rock could be used to seed a new tank, and old tanks make great qt. Plenty of people leaving the hobby, with mature live rock for sale.

 

[Fourstars]

Aptasia happens so just relax scrape them off and put back in the display. You will have to manage them in the future so get a bottle of aptasiaX.
my tanks are all start from tear downs and its not much different then gulf rock, you have all the issues that previous tank had. A reef tank is not a sterile environment and you have to learn to manage the undesirables.

 

[CalebWBrink2000]

There are two avenues you can go down to run a reef tank; the sterile route with quarantining everything, starting with dry rock and sand, and controlling every single organism that enters the tank. Or, you go the natural route and flood the tank with microbes and such to try and create an enclosed biome/ecosystem.

Both will work and yield success, but I prefer the natural route and look, so I'll never have a tank without live rock. The sterile route will be more challenging during the first two years and easier long-term; the natural route will be the opposite, but both can sustain 10+ year tanks if you know your system.

 

[Ls7corvete]

Aptasia happens so just relax scrape them off and put back in the display. You will have to manage them in the future so get a bottle of aptasiaX.
my tanks are all start from tear downs and its not much different then gulf rock, you have all the issues that previous tank had. A reef tank is not a sterile environment and you have to learn to manage the undesirables.

My rock with aptasia is in qt until they are gone. I accept that we can't keep all pests out, but I'm going to take the time to get rid of what I can

 

[Solga]

How we can do it.

A small piece of "real a live rock", fresh from the sea, not cleaned , is put in a refuge. The refuge is then connected to a tank with " dry" rock, self-made ore mined. This dry rock was cured, has been in boiling and acidic water, was sterilized. This to avoid competition between life already present on and in the "dry" rock and the "live rock" . The fresh " live rock " will release a lot of nutrients in the environment which then will be used for colonizing the sterile rock to become" alive"

In the refuge traps may be installed to catch hitch-hikers and make a selection between them. Corals can be placed on the rock to condition, this way making it easy for the coral for develop its holobiont as competition is limited .

Just one of many options.

I have been seriously considering this, as I am getting ready to start up my next tank. Do you, or anyone else have any actual experience with this ? Pros, cons, or any other advice ?
And yes, I read this whole thread

 

[ScottB]

I have been seriously considering this, as I am getting ready to start up my next tank. Do you, or anyone else have any actual experience with this ? Pros, cons, or any other advice ?
And yes, I read this whole thread

Aside from cost, (which is a big aside, I know) I strongly believe all the hitchhiker paranoia is unhelpful for most reefers.

The only reefers it TRULY will benefit are the ones who will forever run a rigorous, separate, quarantine system forever. Unless you do that, over time you will eventually acquire some host of hitchhikers.

So, 90% of reefers that start with dead rock have to go through a year's worth (or more) of uglies with no real benefit in the end. And they all end up in the dinoflagellate thread. Reefing is hard enough in the beginning; I find little reason to make it even more difficult.

I say buy as much live rock as you can afford and drop it into some NSW bins and inspect it for a month. Remove whatever you don't like.

 

[Solga]

Thank you @ScottB ! Definitely sounds like a plan to me ! Knock out a few birds with one stone ... Get the live rock here, AND give me time to get my floors redone also and one more thing off of the "honey do" list !

Adam

 

[tharbin]

Just a question but the rock that comes from Coralife, does this not have bacteria encapsulated in it to cycle your tank faster? There is Live ocean rock, live cultured, dry rock and then the stuff they sell.

I know this is an older question but I have been thinking a lot about all of this again recently.

"Marketing buzzwords" aside there is only one type of rock that is truly live rock. It is shipped straight from the ocean or holding facility to the end user in seawater or at least wrapped tightly in wet newspaper. Anything else is seasoned, cured, dead or artificial.

A lot of the so called dry live rock is just dead rock or even artificial rock decorated to vaguely resemble live rock. Most of the "dry" live rock--like there could even be such a thing is baren of life other than maybe some terrestrial bacteria. Most, maybe all that we can buy, of the live rock available today I would call seasoned or cured.

Putting a piece of dead coral rubble into the ocean will populate it quite nicely with a large number of desirable, and a few undesirable, species.

It is not the same as what we bought 20 or 30 years ago. That live rock had life within the rock that attached to the coral skeleton while the coral was still growing and became fully or partially embedded into the rock structure. Christmas tree worms are a good example of this. That rock had bivalves and worms and who knows what else living within the rock.

Since most of today's live rock is really just seeded rock, I see little value in using all "live rock" for a new setup other than initial cycling and aesthetics. Starting with dry rock and using a few seed pieces will end up in the same place. BUT I will not do artificial dry rock again. I don't think the surface structure is close enough to the real thing. Too bad I gave away all my old coral skeletons from the 70s. A sledge and some glue and they would be better than anything manufactured today.

Just my 2.138 (inflation adjusted) cents worth.

 

[Brucealmighty]

Not to put a cat amongst the pigeons here but I'm an old reefer and back in my day we were told go one way or the other because a mix of seeded/live rock with dry/non cured seeded etc would be pointless because of the amount of phosphates and nitrates that are released from the rocks that were dry going in? Do we just use chemicals to adsorb / absorb these now?