Long rant on Ick I guess. Can be very touchy topic.Be Warned Plus a Story!

[BigRedSpecial]

I often feel like I should feel terrible for not quarantining my fish; like it's something you wouldn't dare bring up for fear of being scolded...

I'm firmly in the immunity camp, but for good reason... I use NSW. So I can quarantine all I want, diseases and parasites are going to get in. Along with more beneficial bacteria and diversity of life than most tanks will ever dream of.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I often feel like I should feel terrible for not quarantining my fish; like it's something you wouldn't dare bring up for fear of being scolded...

I'm firmly in the immunity camp, but for good reason... I use NSW. So I can quarantine all I want, diseases and parasites are going to get in. Along with more beneficial bacteria and diversity of life than most tanks will ever dream of.

Yes, yes, Yes! So do I... although at the moment I am battling an as yet unknown chemistry issue... icp test required to work out what it is... all I know is that salifert don't sell a test kit for it... I think I've tried them all now!

 

[Paul B]

I am not battling anything except a little gas

 

[Dilan Patel]

Exactly why I named the thread its name. Such a controversial topic and many ways to approach this...probably not a good time to announce I have never done a water change on either of my tanks on any type of regular basis for the past 17 years of me keeping fish only tanks and now reef tanks.

I will admit I have had my fair share of fish losses but the thing is for each fish death comes a new learning experience. Why it died? what can I do to prevent it? Questions like these is what develops research and then what develops methods.

To me if I'm not going to quarantine everything wet that goes into my tank than I find my efforts that would be put towards a QT setup better used somewhere else. I am not saying for new people to not QT but what I am saying is that I don't want the new hobbyist to think that QT is the only way to go and if you don't you won't be successful.

Which is obviously false due to the numbers of successful hobbyist such as Paul.

 

[4FordFamily]

None taken... although I have to challenge that the accepted quarantine methods 'work'... it would be interesting to see the average fish loss numbers for quarantined tanks Vs those run on the basis of immunity / resistance. Looking at the disease forums I would suggest that a lot of people must be doing it wrong.

As an aside, I'm based over in the UK where almost no-one quarantines in the same way as is recommended here... our disease forums on UK sites are a lot quieter, even taking into account the membership size difference.

My background is as a biologist, I understand immunity and piscine physiology and more specifically bacteria and the benefits of diversity, I spent years quarantining fish, both SW and FW... every now and then something would come along and wipe my tank out... I'd got it wrong, messed up somewhere. If there is one thing you can guarantee about people it's that we can't do something 100% accurately, 100% of the time... the joy of running a system like myself, Paul and countless others do is that this point of failure is removed. Instead we are relying on a natural process, which has evolved over millions of years, alongside the parasites, viruses, bacteria and fungal infections... I would guess that's a little more reliable.

Having said all of that, I am also a mod on a UK reef forum and I run the disease forum there. Whilst I will always explain my methods to anyone who asks, and the science behind them and even offer them as an alternative, anyone who comes looking for advice on disease management will be recommended quarantine, with prophylactic treatment to eliminate all diseases. It is the accepted method and it does work (which is where I do differ from Paul's opinions!) It's just a heck of a lot more work and will always have that point of failure built in.

If you come from a biologist background then you know that there’s no such thing as immunity to parasites. Only varying degrees of resistance to them. I continue to see you and others refer to immunity, that’s like a utopia — it’s not real.

 

[4FordFamily]

Another important note for the casual reader — I still don’t know of any proof of people keeping Achilles tangs in these “immunity” (resistance) systems. You hear a lot and see a photo of one hobbyist or another.

I kept a blonde naso, several wrasse, a couple dwarf angels, and other fish in disease management tanks with velvet and ich for over a year. I also killed several naso tangs, wrasse, and angels before I was able to find some that could fight it off.

Ultimately, I don’t think it was the ethical thing to do by any stretch of the imagination. That’s my own opinion though, that doesn’t make it correct nor the only opinion.

Achilles tangs, powder blues, regal angels, moorish idols, and many other difficult and disease prone fish I am 10x more successful with than I was before (literally).

It just seems reckless to me to promote feeding velvet away. I cannot get past the bad ethics of that. A lot of that could be how much time I spend in the disease forum watching fish die— or people wait to treat for even a few days and it’s too late. It’s heartbreaking but I’ve done it before. I was one of the worst offenders.

It probably makes me biased knowing I’ve killed dozens of powder blue and achilles and many other fish over the years by being hard headed and taking the easy route. I’m not proud of it but I’ve seen what happens. I’ve justified it by saying “they were just weak fish and would have died anyway”. I’ve done all the mental acrobatics necessary not to look at myself and feel disgusted for the unnecessary fish deaths. When I decided to finally give in and quarantine, it was heartbreaking how few fish I killed. I’ve quarantined over 50 tangs for people now, and several angels and other hard to keep or disease-prone fish and it’s tragic how easy it is now because it’s a stark contrast to the failures of the past.

 

[olecaptainj]

Another important note for the casual reader — I still don’t know of any proof of people keeping Achilles tangs in these “immunity” (resistance) systems. You hear a lot and see a photo of one hobbyist or another.

I kept a blonde naso, several wrasse, a couple dwarf angels, and other fish in disease management tanks with velvet and ich for over a year. I also killed several naso tangs, wrasse, and angels before I was able to find some that could fight it off.

Ultimately, I don’t think it was the ethical thing to do by any stretch of the imagination. That’s my own opinion though, that doesn’t make it correct nor the only opinion.

Achilles tangs, powder blues, regal angels, moorish idols, and many other difficult and disease prone fish I am 10x more successful with than I was before (literally).

It just seems reckless to me to promote feeding velvet away. I cannot get past the bad ethics of that. A lot of that could be how much time I spend in the disease forum watching fish die— or people wait to treat for even a few days and it’s too late. It’s heartbreaking but I’ve done it before. I was one of the worst offenders.

It probably makes me biased knowing I’ve killed dozens of powder blue and achilles and many other fish over the years by being hard headed and taking the easy route. I’m not proud of it but I’ve seen what happens. I’ve justified it by saying “they were just weak fish and would have died anyway”. I’ve done all the mental acrobatics necessary not to look at myself and feel disgusted for the unnecessary fish deaths. When I decided to finally give in and quarantine, it was heartbreaking how few fish I killed. I’ve quarantined over 50 tangs for people now, and several angels and other hard to keep or disease-prone fish and it’s tragic how easy it is now because it’s a stark contrast to the failures before.

I’ll bite...

I’m a casual reader here. I have NEVER qt’d a single fish in over 11 years. I kept butterflies, Nano tangs, powder browns and blues, currently have a moorish idol doing unbelievably well, and various other types of fish, rare eels and sharks as well. I like the “expert” fish.

I have only had one outbreak that killed 80% of the livestock and that was from buying a complete system from someone and transferred my rank to the new tank.

Other than that, I have very been successful in “ich management” or whatever you want to call it.l as have many many others.

ALL fish have ich and the so called TTM method is harder and causes more unessary deaths from stress than doing a temp acclimation and going straight into the DT.

It’s various stressors that cause the major outbreaks and weakened immune systems which causes ich/velvet to be lethal.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’ll bite...

I’m a casual reader here. I have NEVER qt’d a single fish in over 11 years. I kept butterflies, Nano tangs, powder browns and blues, currently have a moorish idol doing unbelievably well, and various other types of fish, rare eels and sharks as well. I like the “expert” fish.

I have only had one outbreak that killed 80% of the livestock and that was from buying a complete system from someone and transferred my rank to the new tank.

Other than that, I have very been successful in “ich management” or whatever you want to call it.l as have many many others.

ALL fish have ich and the so called TTM method is harder and causes more unessary deaths from stress than doing a temp acclimation and going straight into the DT.

It’s various stressors that cause the major outbreaks and weakened immune systems which causes ich/velvet to be lethal.

Thanks for your feedback, for the record, I’m not a big fan of TTM, personally.

I cannot substantiate any of my claims nor yours. I did ich management for about ten years as well until I grew tired of killing fish and wanted to keep “higher end” and harder to keep fish.

 

[Gweeds1980]

If you come from a biologist background then you know that there’s no such thing as immunity to parasites. Only varying degrees of resistance to them. I continue to see you and others refer to immunity, that’s like a utopia — it’s not real.

Agreed, it's more simple to type than 'immunity and resistance' each time... you'll see I do use the term resistant from time to time!

 

[Gweeds1980]

Another important note for the casual reader — I still don’t know of any proof of people keeping Achilles tangs in these “immunity” (resistance) systems. You hear a lot and see a photo of one hobbyist or another.

I kept a blonde naso, several wrasse, a couple dwarf angels, and other fish in disease management tanks with velvet and ich for over a year. I also killed several naso tangs, wrasse, and angels before I was able to find some that could fight it off.

Ultimately, I don’t think it was the ethical thing to do by any stretch of the imagination. That’s my own opinion though, that doesn’t make it correct nor the only opinion.

Achilles tangs, powder blues, regal angels, moorish idols, and many other difficult and disease prone fish I am 10x more successful with than I was before (literally).

It just seems reckless to me to promote feeding velvet away. I cannot get past the bad ethics of that. A lot of that could be how much time I spend in the disease forum watching fish die— or people wait to treat for even a few days and it’s too late. It’s heartbreaking but I’ve done it before. I was one of the worst offenders.

It probably makes me biased knowing I’ve killed dozens of powder blue and achilles and many other fish over the years by being hard headed and taking the easy route. I’m not proud of it but I’ve seen what happens. I’ve justified it by saying “they were just weak fish and would have died anyway”. I’ve done all the mental acrobatics necessary not to look at myself and feel disgusted for the unnecessary fish deaths. When I decided to finally give in and quarantine, it was heartbreaking how few fish I killed. I’ve quarantined over 50 tangs for people now, and several angels and other hard to keep or disease-prone fish and it’s tragic how easy it is now because it’s a stark contrast to the failures of the past.

I know we've had this discussion before and I am not out to try and convert you... I applaud the work you do in the disease forum... I may have mentioned in this thread or my own one, that I am a mod on a UK forum and look after the disease forum therein... I absolutely promote what I refer to as 'sterile QT', prophylactically treating with copper/ CP & prazi etc. For the majority who want a stunning display tank, full of fish and corals, this is the easiest way to achieve it.

My tank however, is my tank. Personally, I have suffered less losses (none) since moving over to the 'immune reef' method... that may well be pot luck, tomorrow my system might crash, all my fish die within 24 hours from velvet... but honestly, I don't believe that will happen. It is about as far from a controlled experiment as it's possible to get, but I still think it's valuable to the hobby and may just offer a sustainable alternative to the 'sterile QT' method. I still have the issue that with the sterile QT method we are relying on us getting it right 100% of the time and if there is one thing guaranteed about humans it is fallibility... we cannot do anything 100% accurately, 100% of the time... if we did, the disease forums wouldn't exist. The immune reef method removes that single point of failure and therefore, IMO, is more sustainable long term. You can miss a day feeding the 'right' foods, heck you can miss a week. But you can't allow copper to drop below therapeutic levels, or skip a round of prazi...

I have also mentioned the multiple tangs in my tank, including Acanthurus, which is then dismissed, as orange shoulder tangs 'dont count'... I then mention the powder blue and now the Mata tang... then I'm challenged that it's not an Achilles tang!! If and only IF I am unable to keep an Achilles tang... surely this system is still successful? If that is the only species I am unable to keep? Many, many people are in the position of not having an Achilles tang, but do have ich or some other pathogen in their tanks... whilst it might be 'better' to strip the tank down, go fallow and treat the fish, a lot of people don't have the time, money or space to do that... should they give the hobby up? Or could they find that there is an alternative way, which allows them to keep 99.9% of fish available in the hobby...

I get your point regarding the Achilles I really do... it is a beautiful fish, I have a tang obsession and one day hope to be able to afford an Achilles (£250 approx in the UK)... would I feel comfortable, ethically, adding one to my tank? Absolutely. I wouldn't hesitate, and you know what? I reckon it'd be more likely to thrive in my tank than in the vast majority out there...

 

[Paul B]

I also don't have an Achilles tang as I just don't find them interesting. But in a few months I am moving and hopefully transferring everything in my tank to a larger one. I am sure I will lose many fish and maybe all my corals. But if the tank survives this move, I will try to get an Achilles tang just for the sake of this discussion. I will also give it away when it gets to big like I do with any fish that gets to big. After my tank settles from the move I am "fairly" sure I can add that fish or any other fish with no fear of infection as there has not been even one case of any type of disease in my tank since I can't remember not even my 5 year old Moorish Idol. But of course I may be wrong and that Achilles tang may get ich, velvet, rickets, ringworm, Legionaires disease and mono nucliosis in the first five minutes. Then I will know that I can't keep Achilles tangs.
But what if he has no problem with disease? I am sure that won't be good enough because I can keep any other fish including butterflies, hippo tangs and Moorish Idols for many years with no problems. I really don't know if I can keep an Achilles and Ford may well be correct. (he is a very good tang and Ford keeper ) Then I will have to say that my method only works on all fish except achilles tangs which won't be too bad.

The only reason I have any SPS corals (which I also find boring) is because many years ago on another forum I was told by many people that they would never thrive in my "filthy" tank. I bought some and had them grow all over the place so now I know SPS corals don't seem to care about filth. Now my nitrates are so high that if one of my fish jump out, they can't get back in because my water is so thick.

Stress is also discussed here a lot in relation to parasites and I am told that a stressful event will crash my tank. That may be true but it is true in any tank. In the years my tank has been up here in New York we have lost power dozens of times. 5 days out in Sandy. I went to Germany a few years ago and my tank sitter let my water level fall about 7" in my 14" high tank. I lost all the corals which were above the water which were almost all my SPS which were high in the tank to get more light.
(that is why I only have a few SPS now) I posted that event here on my thread. My salinity was probably double and I quickly filled the tank up with cold tap water. I didn't lost one fish, no ich, no velvet or anything else.

I can't prove these things but I can prove that all my paired fish are spawning and I never posted on this or any forum about diseases since forums were invented, which, to me was like last Tuesday.

This acro was out of the water after my trip. Corals frown on that so it croaked.

 

[Daltrey]

Well I’m getting an achilles tang as soon as I find one online. As of now I plan to quarantine in my 40 breeder for 76 days and then into the 6’ 155 display tank he goes. I will build a more natural environment in my QT instead of the pvc fittings I have now. So far my display tank is ich free with only two very healthy clownfish, some snails and an emerald crab.

I am going to research this fish to the point of knowing everything there is to know about it. The diet will consist of every possible thing it could ever eat. I have only lost very very few fish and I don’t plan on this being one of them. I will choose the other tankmates around this one fish.

 

[azreeftank]

Well I’m getting an achilles tang as soon as I find one online. As of now I plan to quarantine in my 40 breeder for 76 days and then into the 6’ 155 display tank he goes. I will build a more natural environment in my QT instead of the pvc fittings I have now. So far my display tank is ich free with only two very healthy clownfish, some snails and an emerald crab.

I am going to research this fish to the point of knowing everything there is to know about it. The diet will consist of every possible thing it could ever eat. I have only lost very very few fish and I don’t plan on this being one of them. I will choose the other tankmates around this one fish.

Good luck when you find one. The Achilles a truly a stunning Fish. Mine started out about 2” with hardly a sign of the orange tear drop in the back. Going on 5 years now and it’s a stunning 6” Fish with the teardrop almost 1”. Super active Fish and is the Boss of my tank and none of my tangs even think about talking back to him. He is kept with 4 other tangs and a large Moorish Idol and a lot of smaller fish. After adding to DT he showed ick for a good 2 years. None of my tangs or MI ever showed a single sign of ick those 2 years. The Achilles was the last large fish I added. 3 or so years ago I added a cleaner wrasses and a large UV filter. Slowly the ick would show less and less and it’s now been over a year and the Achilles has been perfect. I think the key is heavy feeding, only the best of foods LRS, RODs and Misis all soaked in vitamins 2 times a day. I also feed 2 large sheets of Nori daily. The cleaner wrasse to me is a must and I will never keep a large tank without, the guy is like a drive thru car wash every morning busy cleaning all my tangs. Truly one of the most stunning Fish super active and amazing colors and I hope you find one and have success. I am sure ick is in there but stability and quality foods is the key to me along with the UV. Best of luck.

 

[4FordFamily]

Understand, that for hobbyists that want vast options of fish and reliability they won’t be able to practice these methods. You stumble in to a unicorn every once in awhile, I did. It’s not commonplace.

Paul, I think you’re a great guy, with great intentions, and very intelligent. But regardless of the reasons for not keeping Achilles tangs and the like, the point still remains that you’ve not kept one for ten years, or even one year in your system. I just wanted to ensure the casual reader understands how important livestock selection and future livestock limitations are to your decision of which route you wish to take.

I do agree with Paul that no new hobbyist should skip QT.

 

[Daltrey]

Good luck when you find one. The Achilles a truly a stunning Fish. Mine started out about 2” with hardly a sign of the orange tear drop in the back. Going on 5 years now and it’s a stunning 6” Fish with the teardrop almost 1”. Super active Fish and is the Boss of my tank and none of my tangs even think about talking back to him. He is kept with 4 other tangs and a large Moorish Idol and a lot of smaller fish. After adding to DT he showed ick for a good 2 years. None of my tangs or MI ever showed a single sign of ick those 2 years. The Achilles was the last large fish I added. 3 or so years ago I added a cleaner wrasses and a large UV filter. Slowly the ick would show less and less and it’s now been over a year and the Achilles has been perfect. I think the key is heavy feeding, only the best of foods LRS, RODs and Misis all soaked in vitamins 2 times a day. I also feed 2 large sheets of Nori daily. The cleaner wrasse to me is a must and I will never keep a large tank without, the guy is like a drive thru car wash every morning busy cleaning all my tangs. Truly one of the most stunning Fish super active and amazing colors and I hope you find one and have success. I am sure ick is in there but stability and quality foods is the key to me along with the UV. Best of luck.

Thank you, I will do all of those things you have suggested. That is one beautiful tank.

 

[olecaptainj]

Just plopped a powder brown in the tank today after temp acclimation. Hope it doesn’t fight too much with the idol since it’s the boss of the tank. ;Woot

 

[WillH]

I am new to the hobby, but I have done the QT and I have done the feed more and hope for the best. The powder brown that I had, survived and improved back to little to no spots. I had a Achilles recently that I left in the DT and made sure to pay very close attention and feed multiples times a day, nora and frozen food. I was wrong, I will always catch the fish with the fish trap and QT any tang with copper treatment, personally. I read a lot of teh success stories on here from people that do it both ways, but I am more comfortable with QT.