Looking for a second light fixture. Another viparspectra vs expensive leds vs DIY T5

[92Miata]

AI Prime is 50W-ish, Black boxes are 100 Watts at best regardless of what they "say"

Nobody runs AI primes at 50w.

Almost everyone runs them on the ridiculous 100% blue, 100% violet, 1-3% everything else. Which is about 20w.

 

[Koh23]

We're close enough to share same problems regarding equipment... In fact, most of my equipment comes from Germany....

 

[KonradTO]

Nobody runs AI primes at 50w.

Almost everyone runs them on the ridiculous 100% blue, 100% violet, 1-3% everything else. Which is about 20w.

That kinda supports my point. If 20w sustain sps, imagine a 100w fixture kept at 50% of its potential

 

[KonradTO]

We're close enough to share same problems regarding equipment... In fact, most of my equipment comes from Germany....

Yes Germany is great for some brands (tropic marin, tunze etc) but there are some nice things that are present at decent price mainly in the US market. I considered the seneye par meter but spending 200€ for a number which you cannot really trust if you keep heavy blues on, well.. my par meter will be a cheap montipora frag placed at the top of the rockwork, if that makes sense

 

[92Miata]

That kinda supports my point. If 20w sustain sps, imagine a 100w fixture kept at 50% of its potential

Its insane at this point that people are still arguing that black boxes can't grow corals.

 

[Koh23]

I think that nobody says that bb cannot grow corals...

I simply asking how it is possible to run them on such low settings, when every test, measuring show very low par numbers.....

 

[748S911]

Im sure there will be some xr30’s G5‘s up for sale very cheap. I would look into this route too.

 

[92Miata]

I think that nobody says that bb cannot grow corals...

I simply asking how it is possible to run them on such low settings, when every test, measuring show very low par numbers.....

Because the tests don't show low par numbers.

At full strength, these things kill pretty much everything you put under them. The high white mix means they produce way more PAR per watt than lights that are minimizing white/green/red/etc.

 

[Koh23]

Makes sense....

Can u please comment, or have any toughts about my measuring...

Like i said - 30cm.below light, blue channel gives 168par at 100%.

What can i expect, what par can possibly can be another 30cm below water, if i turn them down at 50, or lower %?

 

[oreo54]

Makes sense....

Can u please comment, or have any toughts about my measuring...

Like i said - 30cm.below light, blue channel gives 168par at 100%.

What can i expect, what par can possibly can be another 30cm below water, if i turn them down at 50, or lower %?

"Theory" goes by inverse square law.
2x the distance, 1/4 of the intensity.
Doesn' t work well in tanks in general but will sort of ballpark it.

So 42 par minimum at 60cm at 100%
Due to reflection/refraction max should be around 100 par.
Real life somewhere in between.

Black box like light example.

Any % dimming divide by it .
50% = 1/2 par

Gets messy though .

 

[Koh23]

Im bit slow today, but doesnt above clearly confim what i say, running blue channel at 30% gives very little par at middle-bottom of tank?

 

[oreo54]

Im bit slow today, but doesnt above clearly confim what i say, running blue channel at 30% gives very little par at middle-bottom of tank.

Corals can adapt to their light environment alonq with bb's having poor control of the light field.. Good par meters average over like 150 degrees on their sensor. Lenses can "beam" more intense par in a small radius than shown by an average.

At least that is my guess..

Within the first 10 m, water absorbs more than 50 percent of the visible light energy

If one looks at nature.. the greater the blue vs "other colors" (well a bit excluding green) the signal is less light..
So they adapt.
More red vs blue shallower and higher intensity of light.
Real effect or not?

 

[KonradTO]

Im bit slow today, but doesnt above clearly confim what i say, running blue channel at 30% gives very little par at middle-bottom of tank?

With the difference tha vipar gets over 1000s at surface

 

[Koh23]

Well, no, it doesnt not give 1000 on surface....

I mean, it does, when mounted 6" above water, AND all chanells are on 100%. Nobody question that. It pushes more than 1000 par in that condition.

What i question is with white channel at 1% and blue at 30%, how in the world can one have any meaningfull par at middle or bottom of tank?

 

[oreo54]

Well, no, it doesnt not give 1000 on surface....

I mean, it does, when mounted 6" above water, AND all chanells are on 100%. Nobody question that. It pushes more than 1000 par in that condition.

What i question is with white channel at 1% and blue at 30%, how in the world can one have any meaningfull par at middle or bottom of tank?

Evidence?
now "which" meter does matter..and ..no..par meters work fine on Kessils..

Low PAR increase photosynthesis?

I've noticed now days that the trend is to have high par values with our led fixtures for better coloration/growth but in reality does it really cause faster growth? Dana riddle at macna 2016 recently discussed the correlation between light, flow and alkalinity and how they can be tweaked in...

www.reef2reef.com

I just came back from my LFS. The owner and I were discussing par values couple weeks ago as I wanted to know what levels he was running at. He became curious and I told him I had a par meter and That I would take it the following week. He keeps all types of corals under Kessil leds.. runs them at 50% intensity. I took my par meter with me surprisingly him and I were shocked to see the results. Literally every coral at his shop was below 120 par. Sps, lps, and softies were all alive and thriving at 40-120 par. He couldn't believe it and I was amazed . This finally proved to me that corals especially sps can maintain their beautiful colors and can thrive in such low par levels. I was shocked to see a red planet sps with such vivid color at 100 par.

 

[DavidinGA]

Ok, to continue my journey into not understanding all of this....

So, i had some time to kill, and i measured par on my black box. It's not viparspectra, but, one way or another, results should be the same, it's all same light...

Well...

30cm (lets say 12") above tank, at water level, readings are.....

All three channels (blue, white, moonlight) at 100% - 860 par
White channel only @100% - 680 par
Blue channel only @100% - 168 par
Moonlight channel (3x3w blue) - not measured, no need

There is small error in measuring, other lights were running at very low %, so, about 10-ish par is gathered from other light source, or it can be address to moonlight channel.

So, with all channels at 100%, it IS possible to have 200-300 par in middle of tank, in my case, that would be around 24" (60cm) from light to measuring point.... Or, at 36" (from light to bottom of tank), still there is a chance that u will have 50-ish par.....

But, when you dimm channels, specially white, there is no way in the world that u can have same par at same level.

So, if you translate plain numbers (and of course, this is somewhat wrong way to do it), when u set white channel at 1%, and blue to 30% (lets say)......

It is impossible to have any meaningful par not even in the middle of tank. Even with wrong math, both channels reduced to 50% gives output of 400-ish par at water level..... 24" lower..... not so much.

Bear with me some more, please....

If you use 30% blue channel, that gives around 50-60 par AT water level, when mounting at 12" above tank.... What's left for underwater?

Blue channel is 4 times weaker than white..... even if it's all same wattage chips....

That is with lenses, without lenses, things are even worse, in best case, you can get around 200-ish par at water level....

I don't know is there any math that you can calculate par loss under water, but, plain logic says - you loose a lot....

So, meaning of all of this is not to doubt anyone who measured, or uses their black boxes with such low settings, but to ask how?

Some of conclusions that i can come up with is - shallow tanks, low mounting height, something is wrong with my light, or maybe some people "adjust" their numbers a bit... . Or, my par readings are not accurate, not even close to real picture....

Even if i don't like BRS, even their tests confirms most of my thoughts - crazy amount of par, but mainly because white channels, if you reduce that channel to something visual appealing, you loose up to 70% of output par....

So, again, please...how?

I also don't understand how people use such low settings.

I run both channels at 100% 3" off the water with no lenses. I see 800+ par at the surface in this setup. I have modified my white channel by adding more blues, which means lower par than if I had kept all the whites too.

 

[Koh23]

No matter how i try it, there simply is no par with low % settings, and thats why i started whole debate.....

Comparing to my other light, popbloom 90 at 85:100:100:100 settings (thats 85% white, else is 100%) gives around 300par at water level (also 12" from tank)....

So only explanation that is left is that my measuring is wrong...

Or simply all statement "i run it at 20%" fall into "run it for few days so far".....

I would like to see tank that is actually full of corals, and i dont talk about 5g tank, something more into 24"cube, that is lit with any bb with such low %....

 

[fryman]

I use viparspectra 65W on my tanks. My oldest tank is about 2yo:

The lights have to be really high and so light spill is def present. They are way powerful especially at the price. I would not use them without a par meter or else you will have problems with hot spots and burnt coral.



My blues run 100% and whites about 10%. But they are over 2 ft above the tank

 

[Koh23]

Thank you...

 

[KonradTO]

Ok a short follow up for the ones interested.
I tested light output with a lux meter. I only did test output at water level because the lux meter is not waterproof, so I cannot really test for light penetration depending on the fixture.
Nevertheless the results are:
-Viparspectra 165W (NO LENSES!!!) vs Kessil A160WE
-Fixtures were set at same distance from water level (8-9")

-Viparsp. at 70%B 0%W = KessilA160 70% intensity, 0% color
-Viparsp. at 55%B 1%W = KessilA160 65% intensity, 45% color
-Viparsp. at 0%B 100%W = KessilA160 80% intensity, 100% color
-Viparsp. at 100%B 100%W = KessilA160 cannot reach, at 100% is 20% weaker than the vipar.

If the luxmeter is to be relied we can see that the blue channel produces much more light intensity than the white. Also at 55%B 1%W the vipar has equal light intensity as the kessil with the settings the way is kept on most nano tanks.
You can see why people with shallow tanks can keep the vipar at minimal settings and grow stuff.

For my specific case I decided that I will swap some diodes in the white channel to mimic the diode composition from the Radion xr15 G5 Blue (I like more blue tint).