Losing SPS, is tin to blame?

[Areseebee]

My tank is maybe a year old. The coral stock is as follows:
- I have had a couple hammers and an octospawn. They grow but maybe more slowly than optimal.
- I had a small tort frag, a monti cap and some kind of encrusting monti. These didn't grow much in ~6 months and the tort never showed much in the way of polyps, however they seemed to be alive and ok.
- I had a pectinia which was growing albeit maybe also kind of slowly.

The tank is probably a year old or so. I bought ~10 SPS frags and put them on a eggcrate rack on the bottom of the tank where they seemed to be doing ok for a week or two. Suddenly they started to look bad and lose tissue. First it was the older monti which (for the first time) stopped putting its polyps out, and then I just saw them all lose all their flesh at different rates, some fast some slow. I made a thread about it when it first started happening (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/help-with-tissue-loss-in-corals.1152451/) which does have more information that might be helpful if I forget it here. At this point all the sps and pectini are dead, but the hammer/octo seem unaffected.

My parameters, tested the day of that post were:
Ca 450 (Red sea)
Alk 9.02 (Hannah, I believe this is creeping up because consumption has dropped)
nitrate 6 ppm (hannah HR)
phosphate 0.28 ppm (hannah)

So I sent out a total ICP test for both the RO water and tank water and it just came back. Here are the results: https://lab.faunamarin.de/en/share/analysis/291073

I am "missing the mark" on a lot of things but to me the biggest thing maybe is Tin? When I read the description of the effect of too much tin it seems plausible that this is what's causing the problems. I read up some about it and people have identified the rubber tubing from Lowes as a source. I did just do a bit of plumbing, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before the corals arrived with that tubing.

Overall I just wanted to get opinions. (1) Is this the likely culprit? (2) How should I abate it? Can I just be vigilant about water changes to keep it at bay while the flexible tubing leaches out? (3) Are there any other troubling indicators in the report?

Thanks in advance for the help!

 

[mcarroll]

The numbers you posted are all OK, but before we start chasing all the numbers....

SPS with new reefers and new tanks is not often a winning combination.

The easiest answer is to tell you to try some easier corals and once you have that down-pat, move slowly up to the more demanding types that you are interested in.

If you have A LOT more water testing data, we might be able to help....but all we have is the same 4 points you posted in the old thread.

IMO you are just trying to run before you can walk. Not a big deal because you learn no matter what, but focusing on fundamentals and (re)starting with easier corals is my suggestion. Plating Montipora was one of my early easy favorites. Grows like a weed, so it's perfect. Fairly easy to get rid of if you get tired of it. Lots of color choices.

Take it easy and go slow whatever you try. Don't do 10 at once.

 

[Homewrecker]

Youre dosing some type of trace element system that is too much for your reef. Could be two part etc

I’d stop dosing what you’re using and the easiest solution IMO is use salt and products of the same brand as they’re meant to work together

 

[CHSUB]

Wow, that tin is super high. Mine is nowhere close. I would not know if that is a problem but I would replace the tubing and do some wc.

 

[Areseebee]

The numbers you posted are all OK, but before we start chasing all the numbers....

SPS with new reefers and new tanks is not often a winning combination.

The easiest answer is to tell you to try some easier corals and once you have that down-pat, move slowly up to the more demanding types that you are interested in.

If you have A LOT more water testing data, we might be able to help....but all we have is the same 4 points you posted in the old thread.

IMO you are just trying to run before you can walk. Not a big deal because you learn no matter what, but focusing on fundamentals and (re)starting with easier corals is my suggestion. Plating Montipora was one of my early easy favorites. Grows like a weed, so it's perfect. Fairly easy to get rid of if you get tired of it. Lots of color choices.

Take it easy and go slow whatever you try. Don't do 10 at once.

Ok but even if you ignore the fact that I got new SPS, I think I need to understand why even old SPS that I had for months all died at once. Or why the pectinia I had growing died at the same time. I feel like there's something that happened or changed that must be responsible, I feel like the new coral is a bit of a red herring. Most of the older corals I had showed troubling signs first. The idea in the last thread I posted was that I just didn't have enough nutrients in the tank, but I feel kind of doubtful about that.

 

[Areseebee]

Wow, that tin is super high. Mine is nowhere close. I would not know if that is a problem but I would replace the tubing and do some wc.

This is my current suspicion, that tin was slowly building up. I plan to do a couple largish sized water changes and see if things get better... maybe try a few test frags.

 

[Areseebee]

Youre dosing some type of trace element system that is too much for your reef. Could be two part etc

I’d stop dosing what you’re using and the easiest solution IMO is use salt and products of the same brand as they’re meant to work together

Ok I currently dose B-Ionic two part. I was testing Alk twice a day and trying to keep it as stable as possible but I think my alk/calc has gone up with the coral death due to less consumption.

 

[CHSUB]

This is my current suspicion, that tin was slowly building up. I plan to do a couple largish sized water changes and see if things get better... maybe try a few test frags.

I read up some about it and people have identified the rubber tubing from Lowes as a source. I did just do a bit of plumbing, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before the corals arrived with that tubing.

What about replacing the tubing?

 

[Areseebee]

What about replacing the tubing?

Yeah I think I will have to. I'm slightly terrified of changing the return line tubing just because I always get so worried about leaks and stuff. However, I will definitely replace the UV sterilizer line I did. Although I'm not sure what to use. I see the thread recommending TYGON 2475 but I'm not sure where I can get like three feet of it without paying out the nose. Maybe there's another option.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I gave up looking for the actual tin value in that ridiculous document with all sorts of ways to present the same data over and over.

What is the value?

 

[Homewrecker]

I gave up looking for the actual tin value in that ridiculous document with all sorts of ways to present the same data over and over.

What is the value?

If you click pdf it’s less dumb. I got annoyed with it too. They def think their customers can’t read lol

 

[CHSUB]

Yeah I think I will have to. I'm slightly terrified of changing the return line tubing just because I always get so worried about leaks and stuff. However, I will definitely replace the UV sterilizer line I did. Although I'm not sure what to use. I see the thread recommending TYGON 2475 but I'm not sure where I can get like three feet of it without paying out the nose. Maybe there's another option.

I use silicon tubing when needed, Ace Hardware or Home Depot has many options.

but AquaCave is a good choice too…
https://aquacave.com/flexible-tubing/

 

[Areseebee]

I gave up looking for the actual tin value in that ridiculous document with all sorts of ways to present the same data over and over.

What is the value?

43,8 ug/L, undetectable in the RO

Edit: I think this gets you right to the pdf: https://lab.faunamarin.de/download/analyses/291/291073.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ok, that amount is pretty high and I’d look to remove the source, assuming you can identify it. I have seen some tanks with twice that amount, but I also recall them having issues.

Tin is tricky as there are many chemical forms with different toxicity, but that level is concerning.

 

[mcarroll]

Ok but even if you ignore the fact that I got new SPS, I think I need to understand why even old SPS that I had for months all died at once. Or why the pectinia I had growing died at the same time. I feel like there's something that happened or changed that must be responsible, I feel like the new coral is a bit of a red herring. Most of the older corals I had showed troubling signs first. The idea in the last thread I posted was that I just didn't have enough nutrients in the tank, but I feel kind of doubtful about that.

Did you change to the return tubing that you've been using and then they died?

If that's the connection you have, then for sure replace the tubing. Same if you have some other hard link like that.....whatever change you made before they died, that's the first thing you "undo" if possible when there's any sign of trouble.

But I didn't hear you say (so far) that you changed anything before things went bad.

And the typical pattern with SPS frags in new tanks is to grow out (a little) and then slowly (or rapidly) die off. Sometimes it doesn't take more than a little too much variance with some parameter to cause this.

While keeping that in mind (it's why not everyone keeps SPS; it's real) tin along with either lead or copper is common in solder joints. Are any of your tank's electronics cheap, old or possibly damaged? Your report doesn't show lead, but does show a slight elevation in copper. Not quite hard, conclusive evidence but enough to be worth reviewing your gear and making sure there's nothing in the tank that doesn't belong there.

A big fat water change ought to make an "instant" difference if contamination is really an issue. Dose up the new water's nutrient levels so it's identical to the tank's levels to avoid a shock on the nutrient end of things. Unless you're up for (even more) ICP, maybe consider switching out to a different salt brand as a control (in case your salt is the source of the issue). ICP testing a fresh-mixed batch of seawater is the alternative if that sounds good.

 

[Areseebee]

Sorry I'm probably coming off somewhat disorganized. Sometimes it's hard to keep all the evidence and data straight.

1) I piped in a Jebao UV in December using soft tubing from Lowes probably 3ft
2) I redid my return plumbing to deal with a slow leak in January maybe? Probably added a 1-2 feet of the same tubing
3) I added a jebao DMP45 in February.
4) I started dosing B-ionic (couple feet of airline tubing) in February.

I guess any of these could be causal. I definitely am guilty of cheap electronics on most all fronts.

 

[allenk4]

X

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

My tin is at 0.41 ug/l from my last ICP. That tin value is insanely high!

 

[mcarroll]

Sorry I'm probably coming off somewhat disorganized. Sometimes it's hard to keep all the evidence and data straight.

All good! Hopefully that's at least part of the purpose of this thread! :)

1) I piped in a Jebao UV in December using soft tubing from Lowes probably 3ft
2) I redid my return plumbing to deal with a slow leak in January maybe? Probably added a 1-2 feet of the same tubing
3) I added a jebao DMP45 in February.
4) I started dosing B-ionic (couple feet of airline tubing) in February.

I guess any of these could be causal. I definitely am guilty of cheap electronics on most all fronts.

Without more details...

Seems like UV would be the most suspicious since that device is harsh on plastics inherently.

Pumps ought to be well sealed, but I think I'd run a voltage test just to see what you see. If anything (significant) is detected, pull the electronics (including UV) one at a time to see if you can zero in on the source. Obviously this indicates a leak; stop using that device. (Problem solved.)

I really can't see why vinyl tubing or B-ionic would carry significant amounts of Tin into the tank. Don't you already do water changes? Even if not...

Though it's easy enough to test any of these, I would be comfortable ruling out ESV as a culprit.

Tubing "might" have tin as a stabilizer...as in, there are tin stabilizers that can be used in vinyl tubing. But it might be more likely to have some calcium-zinc mixture. Why assume it's tin? Even if it's tin, it's not like it's tin tubing, it's a single-digit-percentage additive used to stabilize the PVC matrix to prevent breakdown. The PVC ought to protect >99% of the tin, even if there's some minute fraction that can "wear off" in saltwater, so why would a significant amount be accumulating in your water? And I'm conjecturing that's even possible.....google it before you decide what you're going to do about this. :)

Any of this is possible, but the electronics angle is more probable. Thankfully it's not necessarily too hard to test most of this and take the theory out of it.

 

[Areseebee]

I use silicon tubing when needed, Ace Hardware or Home Depot has many options.

but AquaCave is a good choice too…
https://aquacave.com/flexible-tubing/

Is silicon tubing sufficiently durable and strong for running returns/uv?