Love this hobby. But how do you handle the morality of it?

[djf91]

I also think the velocity with which I'm making changes and trying things is magnifying the problems at times.

I don't really rush things, but probably have 2 or 3 things going on at once, and fewer concurrent changes would probably mean more chance to learn and succeed.

Also, slower would be a lot easier on the wallet. 20-yrs-ago-me would be appalled at how much I've spent on this hobby. But it's fun.

I agree. A healthy, mature display (only achieved through stability) , with the appropriate biodiversity (space occupiers), has far fewer disease outbreaks IME. The lifecycles of ich and other fish diseases have to compete for space when they’re living outside the host and also avoid being preyed upon by other benthic plankton. @jda has spoke on this before. Now that my system is approaching 3 years of age, I hardly see ich pop up anymore and when it does it’s gone as soon as it pops up. I see scratching from time to time in my fish population but nothing different from what you'd see in scratching behavior of fish in the ocean.

 

[ReeferLou]

The one thing I consider when buying a new fish is how long the pet store had it in stock. Less than 2 weeks would be a red flag for me. But I am not looking for anything exotic - blue damsel, hawkfish, clown pair, 1 tang. I rely on the LFS to do my QT so if it thirves there for a month or longer I feel like my chances are better.

 

[Js.Aqua.Project]

I use Airtable, just a bit easier to work with (in my opinion) than a spreadsheet because it's more like a database.

I was thinking of sharing a template because of all the automation I've added to it.

Please share the template with examples of how you built it, it looks really nice and we'd be interested to learn.

To comment on the main theme of the thread...

I think a lot of your mortality rate comes down to some of the issues you've mentioned yourself - species selection and husbandry skills (ie lids and research). Many of the species you have mentioned so far are either known temperamental species (Yasha Goby), fighters (chromis/firefish), or sensitive.

Don't take this as me saying "it's all your fault" - that's not my point. I think your higher than normal mortality rate is a combination of bad luck and species choices. For example, Blue Throats tend (in my experience) to be one of the heartier triggers and you got one that's not going to make it past QT.

To truly handle the "morality" issue of the mortality, I take a "dead or better" approach. I am going to do everything I can to keep every creature in my care alive and thriving. I keep a close eye looking out for diseases, ailments and behavioral issues; but at the end of the day - that creature is either dead or better which is the same as it would be in the ocean.

 

[PeterEde]

I originally got into this hobby about 20 years ago, and it was very different then.

Fish sometimes collected with dynamite or cyanide. Nobody quarantined anything. And reckless animal options like sharks, octopus, or large morays were not uncommon.

Got back into it 2 years ago, and I've been trying to do everything right.

Trying to avoid overstocking, QT'ing everything. Careful drip acclimation. Only buying things I'm sure I can care for.

I track everything I do in this hobby in a lot of detail, so I have statistics for a lot of things. And even as a person who I like to think is acting pretty responsibly, I have a lot of fish losses.

In the last 2 years, I have bought 98 fish:

• 47 are still with me
• 11 have gone missing (presumed dead)
  • Most of these are chromis, anthias, and damsels that likely killed each other off.
• 4 I've traded/donated
• 35 dead
  • 6 to disease. Mostly mystery diseases
  • 10 jumped to their death
  • 4 refused to eat
  • 8 murdered by another fish
  • 4 accidental deaths (pump turned off, ammonia spike in QT, etc)
  • 3 acclimation deaths

A roughly 50% death rate seems not great.

Let's try again if I filter out high-mortality stuff like Chromis, Anthias and Damsels.

That leaves 57 total:

• 25 still with me
• 3 traded/donated
• 28 dead
  • 5 disease
  • 10 jumped
  • 3 starved
  • 5 murdered
  • 3 accidental
  • 2 acclimation

So about the same really.

-----

I bring this up because I just got two Bluethroat Triggers yesterday, and while they looked good initially, I can already see that the male is not likely going to make it through QT. Probably my fault, might be something about the accilimation, but not sure.

I have literally been looking forward to buying this pair for 2 years, and I will probably lose one almost immediately.

It's getting sad/depressing.

There are so many variables involved before they even get to me. And even once I have them, it seems almost a roll of the dice if they make it a month.

How do you all handle this? What do you do to minimize the negative impact/death rate?

You can discount the 10 jumpers too. A lid would have saved them. I lost a couple to jumping when I first started and put a lid on. No more jumpers.
Then moved to a 425 and had one jumper I managed to save. I spent the day building a netted lid to stop any more.
I've lost a few to aggression, recently a few to ich and my own lack of knowledge.

 

[amoore311]

8 Jumpers in that short amount of time just seems short sited on your part to be honest. Cover the darn tanks your fish are in, problem solved. There is no excuse for losing 8 fish to jumping.

Disease wise, if you are buying your fish from 1 place I'd try another place. I order exclusively from NY Aquatic myself, they source direct from collectors and are only 90 minutes away from me so the shipping is quick/easy or if I want to drive I can pick up. You can also look for fish coming from tank breakdowns.

My QT is 6 weeks in Hypo. That is it. If I noticed anything wrong during the hypo period, I will specifically treat for that issue and that issue alone. If you are running into basic issue like Ammonia during quarantine killing fish, it might be wise to just purchase previously QT'd fish or fish from existing systems.

As far as fish killing each other, again I chalk that up to the hobbyist needing to step in and remedy the situation before the fish dies or do a better job of selecting fish in the first place. If I am not willing to tear my 220 gallon apart to get a fish out, the fish isn't going in, in the first place. I do everything in my power to make sure the fish will be fine first. That just amounts to adding the fish to the system with an acclimation box, and making sure it is fat and happy before it going into my main system.

With slight changes you could easily erase the vast majority of the losses.

 

[Jim Gomoll]

I would say yes. Most likely to jump species are wrasse, gobies, bennies. So if you plan on keeping any from that group it is a must.

I'd also add that even if you have a top, screen or glass keep tank covered as much as possible. Even when working on tank cover it before walking away.

Set up a small desk tank and lost two out of 5 fish in less than 24hrs. First one a Bluestreak Cleaner Wrasse was in tank 60 minutes top and disappeared. Following day Yellow Clown Golby there in a.m. and then gone. Both I figure jumped when I took the top off to move things around. Turned my back 10-15 minutes doing something and poof...Gone. Looked all over and know they were not eaten by the damsels. Can only figure they jumped out and are behind the file cabinet. Keep your tank covered.

 

[peterhos]

Happened upon this thread and noticed you listed 10 jumped. I am starting a new tank and was on the fence if I need to get screens for the top. Do you have one? And would you recommend having one to help cut down on jumpers?

I set up a new tank a year ago and had a fish jump out. Then bought the Red Sea net cover. Took half an hour to cut to shoe etc but invaluable.

 

[peterhos]

Sorry but I don't have 51% mortality rate, I don't think 51% mortality rate is normal, and sorry to say it but if someone has 51% mortality then I think they are likely doing a lot of things wrong. It breaks my heart to know that one person killed 47 fish in such a short time.....

Maybe we should just keep hardy fish. My clown fish lived to 22. On the other hand had no luck with chromis, anthias and basslets so I now avoid those.

 

[static416]

I agree. A healthy, mature display (only achieved through stability) , with the appropriate biodiversity (space occupiers), has far fewer disease outbreaks IME. The lifecycles of ich and other fish diseases have to compete for space when they’re living outside the host and also avoid being preyed upon by other benthic plankton. @jda has spoke on this before.

This is interesting. I didn't realize this about mature tanks, but makes sense.

I'm still not 100% convinced this means I should skip QT, but the idea that a mature tank has something of a natural "immune system" is interesting.

 

[static416]

The one thing I consider when buying a new fish is how long the pet store had it in stock. Less than 2 weeks would be a red flag for me. But I am not looking for anything exotic - blue damsel, hawkfish, clown pair, 1 tang. I rely on the LFS to do my QT so if it thirves there for a month or longer I feel like my chances are better.

Agreed that would be preferred, but still a bit tough because anything a bit more rare tends to go quick.

That said, I'm hesistent to drop $1500 on a Linespot Trigger after it's only been in the tank a day.

 

[static416]

To truly handle the "morality" issue of the mortality, I take a "dead or better" approach. I am going to do everything I can to keep every creature in my care alive and thriving. I keep a close eye looking out for diseases, ailments and behavioral issues; but at the end of the day - that creature is either dead or better which is the same as it would be in the ocean.

This is somewhat like my thinking as well.

The impact of the aquarium trade (for most animals) is a tiny fraction of the impact of shipping, fishing, and a myriad of other threats. I make a point of checking the Conservation Status on Wikipedia before I buy something.

Still though, feels a bit weird to me sometimes. Though I guess it hasn't stopped me.

 

[reefbliss2344]

I also think the velocity with which I'm making changes and trying things is magnifying the problems at times.

I don't really rush things, but probably have 2 or 3 things going on at once, and fewer concurrent changes would probably mean more chance to learn and succeed.

Also, slower would be a lot easier on the wallet. 20-yrs-ago-me would be appalled at how much I've spent on this hobby. But it's fun.

For sure. People ask "man how much have you spent" Juvenile me would boast. . . Now. I'm embarrassed and just say "a good amount". Gives me peace and focus though.

 

[Merry]

Maybe we should just keep hardy fish. My clown fish lived to 22. On the other hand had no luck with chromis, anthias and basslets so I now avoid those.

Oh my, don't tell me that! 22 years? I have a small biocube and have ended up with a nasty, nasty clown that will kill anything I put in the tank.I had a Coral Beauty in with him for 4 plus years and the other day I found him on the bottom with a big bite taken out of him, broke my heart. I've tried even adding a small cleaner shrimp and he tore it apart. There is a small wrass in that is able to hide... Needless to say I won't cry when he is gone and I cry easily.

 

[0MNSH1ZLLC]

Sohal Tang * Emp Angel * Clown Trigger * Porc Puffer * Starry Puffer * Emp Snapper * Undulate Trigger * Squirrelfish * Goldentail Moray * Tessalata Moray * Blue Line Trigger * Golden Puffer * Assiassi Trigger

My current stock 2 years into having this tank

Blueline Grouper killed arrowhead basslet and niger trigger

Blueline grouper went back to Lfs (hate this fish)

Lunare wrasse and Dragon Wrasse disappeared / assume they were eaten by the morays

2 eels jumped (snowflake and jeweled)

Porc puffer ate the starry trigger

Porc puffer attacked the bird wrasse but i saved it / bird wrasse went back to lfs

1st clown trigger came with swim bladder went back to lfs

Humu, 2nd Niger, pink tail and dog face went back to lfs (other fish got too big, didn’t think it was safe after the bird wrasse got attacked, sohal harassed the pink tail)

Lionfish wouldn’t eat and I brought it back to the lfs.

Died of disease but lived 6 plus months:
golden heart trigger, Blueline trigger, blue throat trigger and harlequin tusk

Died during power outage:
2nd golden heart trigger

Died in less than a month:
Queen trigger and clown tang

Weirdest thing: I don’t think the undulated trigger has grown at all and I’ve had it the entire time.

Ifs guy thought I might have some sort of parasite endemic to triggers. They all die in similar fashion, get bloated, get lethargic, then croak.

I doubt my % is any better, might even be worse. It’s just part of a hobby which isn’t easy.

Ive taken a few of the dead ones to the lfs to get the lungs scraped without any real diagnosis.

I’ve also witnessed how many dead fish show up in the lfs shipments.

ordered 2 clown tangs and a broom tail wrasse that died in quarantine at the lfs.

I’m not sure how I feel about it honestly…lots of wasted money lol. Full disclosure…