low ph during vinegar dosing / solutions?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ORP
Even stirring up all the detritus my ORP only dropped a total of 40 and by the evening, it returned back to its normal level of 310 - 320. I am not seeing it plummet like it did dosing NOPOX.

NOPOX kind of vaguely claims to have ingredients other than organics, and if true, may have some trace elements such as ferrous iron which could lower ORP.

"NO3 PO4-X is a unique complex of carbon substances and other organically bound elements"

 

[Clownfishy]

NOPOX kind of vaguely claims to have ingredients other than organics, and if true, may have some trace elements such as ferrous iron which could lower ORP.

"NO3 PO4-X is a unique complex of carbon substances and other organically bound elements"

Interesting. What would the purpose of something like ferrous iron have for carbon dosing? I think you can see from my ORP measurements when I stopped dosing NOPOX and starting Vinegar kalk mix!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All growing bacteria use trace elements and it is desirable to ensure they have enough or the method may become trace element limited.

Sea Red makes some more complicated claims that I'm not sure are real and I'd lump them in with other manufacturer assertions that generally lack evidence. It semes to me the whole set of claims is intended to show that NOPOX is better than DIY versions, but in reality, users do not generally report a significant difference that I have seen.

Nitrate & phosphate reduction via carbon dosing

Fighting nutrient build up in the aquarium is one of the major struggles the common hobbyist must face on a daily basis.

www.redseafish.com

for example:

"NO3 PO4-X also provides seven enzymatic co-factors to insure complete denitrification to nitrogen gas and prevent the probability for N2O and NO formation."

 

[Clownfishy]

Could it be argued that because they are adding these trace elements, NOPOX promotes varied bacteria strains? I only ask this as I am wondering what I should expect moving from one carbon dosing to a different one. For example, should I expect my nutrients rise as some bacteria die off and others begin to establish or does existing bacteria see all carbon as equal and my existing bacteria will just continue feeding off of the Vinegar Kalk mix?

This is certainly an interesting topic.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All kinds of things can be speculated, but whether it has any bearing on reality is unknown.

 

[Clownfishy]

Observations on day 3 dosing vinegar kalk mix -

Dosage
I am now dosing 15ml of vinegar kalk a day up from 12.5ml yesterday. As I am again seeing a haze in the aquarium from a slight bacteria bloom, I will not increase it any further until I no longer see a bloom.

pH
The pH has not risen as much as it had done in the last couple of days but I am putting this down to the C02 levels in the house. It only hit a high of 8.07 but as there was not much wind today, even with the windows open, there was not enough fresh air being blown into the house. Still, 8.07 is better than I was getting previously!

ORP
Did not see any drop in ORP so I think we can now say whatever effect NOPOX had on ORP, I am not seeing it with the vinegar kalk mix so will no longer report on ORP unless that changes.

Nutrients
Today I observed the same strange jump in phosphate levels in the morning as seen yesterday only to see it drop again when testing in the evening. They tested 0.4 in the morning and back down to 0.29 in the evening. I am not going to raise my dosing any further as I want to see if my bacteria are going through some transition phase and all of a sudden, the population start increasing and reducing the nutrients too quickly.

Alkalinity
My levels rose again today so I am now down to just 3ml a day. I also add 300ml of fresh saltwater every day as a kind of a small water change and just calibrated the dosing pump. Found it was dosing a little more than usual so that might account for the increase in Alkalinity levels increasing.

Summary
Apart from the jump in phosphate overnight, things are going as expected. No idea why phosphate jumps so high in the morning especially as I previously tested my phosphates in the morning when dosing NOPOX and they were the same levels in the morning as they were in the evening.

 

[Clownfishy]

@Randy Holmes-Farley When you used your Vinegar Kalk mix, did you shake the mix on a regular basis or did you just let it sit there once you mixed it? I only ask as I initially observed quite a jump in pH for the first couple of days but although my pH is still higher than it was when I was dosing NOPOX, it is not getting as high as when it was first mixed. I am also noticing that the mixture in the container is clearer each day with some brown gunk and kalk powder settling out at the bottom of the container so I was wondering if it needs mixing again from time to time?

Sorry for all the questions but I really want this to work and get this right. I am really pleased with the pH jump I have seen already and that my ORP no longer falls off a cliff so many thanks for all your advice on this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley When you used your Vinegar Kalk mix, did you shake the mix on a regular basis or did you just let it sit there once you mixed it? I only ask as I initially observed quite a jump in pH for the first couple of days but although my pH is still higher than it was when I was dosing NOPOX, it is not getting as high as when it was first mixed. I am also noticing that the mixture in the container is clearer each day with some brown gunk and kalk powder settling out at the bottom of the container so I was wondering if it needs mixing again from time to time?

Sorry for all the questions but I really want this to work and get this right. I am really pleased with the pH jump I have seen already and that my ORP no longer falls off a cliff so many thanks for all your advice on this.

Once initially mixed, it needs no remixing until it runs out and you need to make more. Just leave the residue on the bottom.

You might have had some particulates of calcium hydroxide suspended when you first used it.

 

[Clownfishy]

Once initially mixed, it needs no remixing until it runs out and you need to make more. Just leave the residue on the bottom.

You might have had some particulates of calcium hydroxide suspended when you first used it.

Suspended particles makes perfect sense, thank you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Clownfishy]

Update converting from NOPOX to vinegar kalk mix Day 8 -

Dosage
I am now dosing 20ml of vinegar kalk a day up from 10ml I started with. I am no longer seeing a haze in the aquarium so no more bacteria blooms although I have the normal white film on the glass.

pH
The pH boost has been amazing and today my pH was 8.17. Yesterday it hit 8.2 at its peak which is an all time high for my reef. Also for 2 consecutive nights, my pH never went below 8 which again is unheard of. I am VERY happy with the pH I am getting

ORP
Pretty stable now and only moves approximately 10 within 24 hours.

Nutrients
I appreciate it is still early days but I am not seeing any improvement and in fact, my phosphate has now risen to 0.34. Yesterday my Nitrates had risen to 11.3. I am hoping I see it begin to turn soon as I was only dosing 3.5ml of NOPOX and my phosphate was between 0.1 -0.2. Also, I am begging to see reddish algae on dead parts of coral. This could be the start of red slim but lets see.

Alkalinity/Calcium
I have now stopped all my 2 part dosing as my alkalinity hit 12.3 and calcium 470. If this does not come down, I will make up another batch of vinegar kalk and lower the amount of kalk I mix as I have gone from dosing 10ml of 2 part a day down to 0!

Summary
I am keeping a very close eye on my alkalinity as it is rising too high too quickly. I wonder as I am dosing kalkwasser during the night and adding kalk in vinegar, maybe it is just too much in a 75 litre (20 US gal) nano.

 

[Clownfishy]

Yes, that's pretty much what I did: dumps in so much that no more dissolves. It should take around 60 g per liter of 5% acidity vinegar, but there's nothing wrong with adding way more and you can reuse the solids again if you want.

As my alkalinity and calcium has been rapidly climbing since dosing vinegar kalk mix, I thought I would make up a new batch as I maybe added too much Calcium Hydroxide. I just want to check the above. I measured out 1 litre of 5% vinegar and 60g of Calcium Hydroxide, mixed them up and this is what I got! As you can see from the second picture, the Calcium Hydroxide begins to settle out and it is a totally different color than the last time I mixed this (it was brown in color). Just trying to work out why the last batch turned brown but this one looks like kalk slurry!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know why they are different colors. It still looks plenty saturated. pH can impact colors and solubility of trace elements such as iron, but saturated is saturated, and shouldn't vary much.

 

[Clownfishy]

I don't know why they are different colors. It still looks plenty saturated. pH can impact colors and solubility of trace elements such as iron, but saturated is saturated, and shouldn't vary much.

It was so saturated, I had about 1inch of Calcium Hydroxide at the bottom of the container! It seem 60g is way too much Calcium Hydroxide although that was adding 60g all at once into 1 litre of vinegar. This morning, I mixed up another batch but this time, I was adding a teaspoon at a time and making sure each teaspoon of Calcium Hydroxide dissolve before adding the next one. I have added 5 teaspoons so far and there is a little bit on the bottom so I might stop there and start dosing a slightly weaker mix to see if I can keep my alkalinity from rising too much. I guess I may sacrifice a bit of pH but is my thinking correct e.g. you can balance the alkalinity of the vinegar kalk mix by adding more or less of the Calcium Hydroxide to the vinager? Out of interest, mixing it this way turns the liquid brown. I plan on letting it settle out over night and siphoning off the clear liquid and dosing that.

 

[Clownfishy]

So I am looking for advice. I am amazed with the increase in pH that mixing kalk into vinegar is giving me. Unfortunately, it has pushed my Alkalinity to 12.1 but I still need to add more of a carbon source as my phosphate are still 0.29. With these levels, I have been dosing 20ml of vinegar kalk mix so today I am testing 15ml of vinegar kalk mix and 5ml of pure vinegar. The first test was to wait for the pH increase and dose the 5ml of pure vinegar all at once at mid day. As you would expect, the pH instantly dropped. In my case 0.04. Tomorrow I will dose 5ml over several hours when my pH is high to see the results.

Therefore, are there any drawbacks with either option or suggestions of over options?

1. Start dosing pure vinegar along side with the vinegar kalk mix to try and find a balance of keeping some of the pH boost whilst not increasing alkalinity
2. Make the vinegar kalk mix weaker until I get the same balance of not too high alkalinity and some raising of pH.
3. Same as option 1 but use NOPOX (not sure what this achieves and may complicate matters)

I thought I read someone that option 2 may cause bacteria to grow in the dosing container but that maybe wrong?

Many thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I am looking for advice. I am amazed with the increase in pH that mixing kalk into vinegar is giving me. Unfortunately, it has pushed my Alkalinity to 12.1 but I still need to add more of a carbon source as my phosphate are still 0.29. With these levels, I have been dosing 20ml of vinegar kalk mix so today I am testing 15ml of vinegar kalk mix and 5ml of pure vinegar. The first test was to wait for the pH increase and dose the 5ml of pure vinegar all at once at mid day. As you would expect, the pH instantly dropped. In my case 0.04. Tomorrow I will dose 5ml over several hours when my pH is high to see the results.

Therefore, are there any drawbacks with either option or suggestions of over options?

1. Start dosing pure vinegar along side with the vinegar kalk mix to try and find a balance of keeping some of the pH boost whilst not increasing alkalinity
2. Make the vinegar kalk mix weaker until I get the same balance of not too high alkalinity and some raising of pH.
3. Same as option 1 but use NOPOX (not sure what this achieves and may complicate matters)

I thought I read someone that option 2 may cause bacteria to grow in the dosing container but that maybe wrong?

Many thanks

Are you using a settled clear solution?

are you adding any other alk?

A weaker solution may cause bacterial growth since the pH may be more to their liking.

 

[Clownfishy]

Are you using a settled clear solution?

are you adding any other alk?

A weaker solution may cause bacterial growth since the pH may be more to their liking.

I am using the settled clear solution. I have now had to stop all my 2 part dosing for a whole week now and my alk is at 12 and calcium 470. I do dose Kalkwasser at night but I have been doing that for a long time. The only other change I have made which could possibly be contributing to the higher alk levels is that I have my Kalkwasser dosing container sitting on a magnetic stirrer and every day at lunch time, it mixes for 30 mins. This was added at the same time as switching from an unbranded Calcium Hydroxide to Seachem Kalkwasser which is meant to be very pure. By the time it starts to dose, it has mostly settled and clear. I will set this to earlier in the morning so it gives it a whole 12 hours to settle.
I have just started to reduce my dosing of the Vinegar kalk by 5ml and add 5ml of pure vinegar to the tank to compensate. I will see if that helps.

You now have me thinking I might have been blaming the vinegar kalk mix when it may have be my mixing of Kalkwasser everyday.....hmmmm, what do you think?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think I’d stop the kalkwasser and see what happens.

 

[Clownfishy]

I think I’d stop the kalkwasser and see what happens.

Thanks Randy for your advice on this. It does not seem there is much information on mixing Calcium Hydroxide into Vinegar so I am trying to get the mix right.
As my pH drops like a stone at night (3 people and 2 dogs breathing out C02 at night!), I thought I might try a couple of things first before I turn off the Kalkwasser dosing although, I think you have possible found the issue.
For 2 days I reduced the vinegar kalk mix by 1/4 and my alk never came down. I am now going to do the following to prove what is raising my alk.

1. Change the magnetic stirrer on the Kalkwasser container to mix first thing in the morning right after the last dose and only for 15 minutes reduced from 30mins. Test alk daily to see if I see a slight drop.
2. If no noticeable change from point 1, turn off magnetic stirrer on the kalk container completely so there is no mixing of Kalkwasser.
3. If both 2 and 3 have not dropped my alk, stop dosing Kalkwasser for a night or 2.

I am now thinking either 1 or 2 might do the trick. If that is not the case and it is 3, then whatever "pure" Calcium Hydroxide I was using before is clearly not as pure as Seachem Kalkwasser.

I assume you would not expect much alk in the vinegar mix as opposed to the alk from Kalkwasser?

 

[Clownfishy]

@Randy Holmes-Farley , while I will do the test listed in my last reply, I thought I would make up some more vinegar kalk mix. After my last experience where there was a lot of kalk left at the bottom mixing 60g with 1 litre of vinegar, this time I halved the kalk to 30g. As you can see, I am still getting about an inch of undissolved kalk settling at the bottom of the container even with vigorous mixing. The remainder of the liquid is cloudy but I will let it settle over night.
Would you expect that much kalk left over?