Magnificent Foxface Suddenly Unable to Swim

[willisd]

I have had a magnificent foxface for many years that has iived through a lot.

I today discovered him in my main tank this evening completely vertical stuck in a rock crevices by a cup containing rock I was mounting a ricordea in. I thought he was dead and went to attempt to touch him or move him and he was able to swim off slightly to the other side of the tank where i have taken these photos and videos of him

He is still breathing and using his two front fins as you can see in this video

I have had this fish for years and have no idea what could have happened here. There were other fish added post QT recently but there were no issues with this particular fish until this evening when i saw him lodged in a strange area.

Could this be internal parasites, possibly damage or something?

When I moved the fish with my hand very gently (yes i love him that much i was willing to get stung) he was able to swim around sort of regularly before ultimately finding another cave or hidden area to shelter in.

I am sick to my stomach about all this and any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Willis

 

[Slocke]

#fishmedic
Sorry to hear this. I suggest you post your water conditions.

 

[willisd]

This is a 200 gallon tank that has been running for many years. The conditions are all very good:

ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 10
phosphate - .16
Alk - 12

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry - the video didn’t seem to upload. Sometimes linking to a YouTube works better.
One possibility at this point is a strike injury that stunned it…..
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

Other post answered and also requested there was a video and pics under white lighting

 

[willisd]

I apologize for the double post, here is a video under the blues.

I have let the lights go out for the night and will get a better picture in the white lights tomorrow.

He is currently stressed out under a large cave and it looks like his spines are extended but he is still breathing and swimming with his front fins.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I apologize for the double post, here is a video under the blues.

I have let the lights go out for the night and will get a better picture in the white lights tomorrow.

He is currently stressed out under a large cave and it looks like his spines are extended but he is still breathing and swimming with his front fins.

Weird - it isn’t breathing fast, has good body weight, seems calm.
I still can’t rule out a strike injury, and can’t think of anything else that aligns with this.
Jay

 

[willisd]

Weird - it isn’t breathing fast, has good body weight, seems calm.
I still can’t rule out a strike injury, and can’t think of anything else that aligns with this.
Jay

I am leaning twoards strike injury as well it seems so bizzare.


Would you think it is un-wise for me to wait out till the morning to see if any improvement

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I am leaning twoards strike injury as well it seems so bizzare.


Would you think it is un-wise for me to wait out till the morning to see if any improvement

The fish does not seem to be in distress, so I would dim the lights and see how it looks in the morning, but I’m not overly optimistic.
Jay

 

[willisd]

The fish does not seem to be in distress, so I would dim the lights and see how it looks in the morning, but I’m not overly optimistic.
Jay

I agree with you on the optimism side.

I will keep checking on him through the night and see how things progress.

 

[willisd]

The fish does not seem to be in distress, so I would dim the lights and see how it looks in the morning, but I’m not overly optimistic.
Jay

Sadly it does seem like he has some sort of injury and needs to be put out of his misery.

I found him sideways and unable to swim away from a large bristle worm eating at his tail. I was able to gently remove him and put him in a gallon bag and from what i can see it looks like he is circling the drain. He cannot swim upright in the bag and puts up minimal resistance to my hand.

I am torn with what to do now @Jay Hemdal do you have any sort of suggestions for peaceful euthenasia? Is freezing still considered the best way? It is currently 10 degrees outside and if i move this bag out there it should happen rapidly.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to hear.

Here is an article I wrote on that topic:

Euthanasia​

Euthanasia is a word derived from two Greek words that roughly translates to “good death”. In other words, euthanasia is the painless killing of an organism. In general usage, there is also the underlying understanding that euthanasia is performed on terminal patients only. This however, is not always the case with aquarium animals. Euthanasia may be performed as a population management tool, or for scientific research. Sometimes the phrase “humane euthanasia” is used, but that is redundant, as the lack of pain means the process is humane.

In this era of quick fixes and immediate gratification, it can be difficult for aquarists to understand that some fish diseases are simply not going to respond to any medication or treatment provided. Some ailing fishes, especially those with chronic diseases, simply cannot be cured and are in fact, slowly dying. Once they reach the point of being “moribund” (not able to feed or swim normally) euthanasia should be considered as a humane alternative to continued unsuccessful treatments.

Do fish feel pain?
Some research has indicated that fish do feel pain, while other studies show that they don’t. The true answer probably lies somewhere in-between; fish do feel an avoidance to adverse stimulus, but it isn’t “conscious pain” as seen in mammals. Termed “Nociception”, this is an animal’s nervous system's response to potentially harmful stimuli. Nociception triggers a variety of physiological and behavioral responses and usually results in a subjective experience of pain in sentient beings. It is less clear how fish and invertebrates receive nociception; is it felt as classical pain, or does it simply create an avoidance response in the animal? Since it is better to err on the side of caution, so euthanasia (painless death) is the most humane option.

Whatever degree of pain or physical discomfort fish experience, it can be argued that allowing chronically ill fish to continue suffering from any major nociception is ethically questionable.

When is euthanasia warranted?

Euthanasia should be considered for a fish if:

1) It has a chronic, untreatable disease (such as tumors, blindness, or starvation)
2) The fish is “moribund” due to severe injury or illness.
3) In some cases, euthanasia is considered necessary for population management reasons. For the sake of argument, let’s say that a population of an endangered species is being managed for conservation purposes, and there is an issue where if the male/female ratio becomes skewed, and increased numbers of one sex (often the males) will disrupt the integrity of the whole population. In that case, it may be best to euthanize the surplus males in order to better preserve the genetic diversity of the entire population.

The American Veterinary Medical Association have their 2020 euthanasia guidelines posted online at https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf

Preferred methods for euthanasia

MS-222
Every aquarist should have a plan for specimen euthanasia before they need to employ it. An overdose of buffered Tricaine methane sulfonate (MS-222) is the preferred method for euthanizing fish. Dosing at a rate of greater than 300 mg/l MS-222 along with 300 mg/l sodium bicarbonate is effective for euthanizing fish within 30 minutes. However, MS-222 is expensive, and not readily available in smaller quantities to home aquarists. Removing the fish too soon from the solution may allow it to recover. It is therefore suggested to leave the fish in a small amount of the euthanizing solution, and freeze it for later disposal.

Clove oil (eugenol)
One product that aquarists can buy that is approved by at least some veterinarians and research biologists is clove oil, also called eugenol. A dose of 50 mg/l is usually sufficient in euthanizing fish. This equates to about 0.20 ml of eugenol in one gallon of aquarium water.

Because eugenol does not mix well with water, and because larger volumes are easier for hobbyists to measure out, it can be dosed using the following method:

1) Add 2 ml of eugenol to 100 ml of tank water in a sealed container and shake it vigorously.

2) Add 10 ml of this suspended solution to each gallon of water needed to euthanize the fish.

3) Place the fish in this solution and keep it covered to prevent it from jumping out and to help keep it calm.

4) Wait at least twenty minutes after it stops breathing, and then remove the fish from the solution and freeze it for later disposal.


Other methods
A variety of other methods have been proposed for the euthanasia of fishes, but none are fully accepted by veterinary experts. Still, home aquarists need more common tools to use, so those methods are listed here in roughly descending order of suitability:

Ethanol
Regular alcohol at a dose of 25 ml per liter will cause respiratory collapse and death in fishes within 30 minutes. The trouble is that alcohol is not available in pure form unless it has been “denatured” by the addition of distasteful chemicals such as turpentine. Vodka is about 40% alcohol by volume, so using it 62 ml per liter will give an effective dose.

Decapitation/pithing
Cutting a fish’s spinal cord, right behind the head, is a quick method of euthanasia that is approved for use in food fishes (where the use of chemicals would otherwise make the flesh unfit to eat). The issue is really that the method is distasteful for most people to do, so it is rarely used by aquarists. However, it is quick and effective.

Freezing
Placing the affected fish in a small amount of aquarium water in a sealed container and then placing the container in a freezer is a euthanasia technique used by some people. However, it is slow to work, so it is not considered humane. Its appeal as a method is that the fish is “out of sight” so people feel more detached from the process.


An option of last resort
The animals in your aquariums are completely reliant on you for proper care. It is your responsibility to see to it that their lives in captivity are humane as possible and that all of their needs are met. If you cannot meet their needs, please find someone who is more able. Euthanasia should be considered only for health reasons, not because it is no longer convenient to care for an animal.

Jay

 

[willisd]

Thank you @Jay Hemdal

I have a camera on the tank that captures videos of “action” and I could see him swimming around normally at 4 pm and it was 2-3 hours later that I found him in this state so I think it had to have been a strike.

doing math this fish had to be at least 7 years old that I had him, and he was big when I got him so he had a good life. What a terrible way to go

 

[willisd]

One last note here- that the way I knew he needed to be euthanized was the presence of a large bristleworm who was eating on him and he was unable to put up any resistance to this. That is when I moved him into the bag and saw his weakness.

I have only had to put down two fish and this one hurt the worst

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I'm sorry you had to go through that Willis.

 

[willisd]

@Jay Hemdal sorry to bother you on Christmas, do you think this could possibly have been some sort of advanced infection of flukes ?

I am now dealing with similar symptoms on my yellow tang. It seems less severe but I found him struggling to breathe hidden in the rocks. I was able to get him into my acclimation box at least but it does not look good for him



this link has a picture and video of my poor tang

 

[willisd]

I really hate to say but I’m wondering if I managed to get velvet.

If the fox and the tang just had it in the gills and this caused the problem so rapidly I’m not seeing it on their bodies yet.

im so heartbroken right now. I am preparing a dip for my yellow tang

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I really hate to say but I’m wondering if I managed to get velvet.

If the fox and the tang just had it in the gills and this caused the problem so rapidly I’m not seeing it on their bodies yet.

im so heartbroken right now. I am preparing a dip for my yellow tang

While the second fish showing similar symptoms does tend to move away from a strike injury - I don't see how this could be velvet (Amyloodinium). Rapid breathing is always a symptom with that, sometimes the only symptom.

Can you get a respiration rate on the yellow tang? Just count the number of gill beats in 15 seconds and then multiply by four to get the count for a minute.

The foxface was breathing slowly in the video, as I mentioned. Here is a thought though - maybe the video was slowed down?

Gill flukes also cause rapid breathing, but not as acute (flukes take more time to develop). Skin flukes don't cause rapid breathing, but they show a general "wear and tear" on the fish's body and fins.

What other fish are in the tank?

Jay

 

[willisd]

While the second fish showing similar symptoms does tend to move away from a strike injury - I don't see how this could be velvet (Amyloodinium). Rapid breathing is always a symptom with that, sometimes the only symptom.

Can you get a respiration rate on the yellow tang? Just count the number of gill beats in 15 seconds and then multiply by four to get the count for a minute.

The foxface was breathing slowly in the video, as I mentioned. Here is a thought though - maybe the video was slowed down?

Gill flukes also cause rapid breathing, but not as acute (flukes take more time to develop). Skin flukes don't cause rapid breathing, but they show a general "wear and tear" on the fish's body and fins.

What other fish are in the tank?

Jay

the foxface was breathing slowly not rapidly.

the other tank mates are

-royal gramma (small)
-hippo tang (old, 10”+)
-flame angel (old, 3-4”)
-pair clown fish
-leopard wrasse
-carpenters wrasse

I did count the tangs breathing and it appears to be ~18 per 15 seconds or 68 per minute

I am currently preparing a fresh water dip for him by aeriating and heating the water. I don’t have any buffer but my other consult has suggested using baking soda to match the ph.

any chance there is a guideline of how much I should use ?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

the foxface was breathing slowly not rapidly.

the other tank mates are

-royal gramma (small)
-hippo tang (old, 10”+)
-flame angel (old, 3-4”)
-pair clown fish
-leopard wrasse
-carpenters wrasse

I did count the tangs breathing and it appears to be ~18 per 15 seconds or 68 per minute

I am currently preparing a fresh water dip for him by aeriating and heating the water. I don’t have any buffer but my other consult has suggested using baking soda to match the ph.

any chance there is a guideline of how much I should use ?

I use tap water to do dips, that way I don't need to buffer it. If you use RODI water, you need to buffer it with baking soda, but make small additions and check the pH closely so that you don't miss the mark. It is going to be a very small amount - perhaps a pinch or two?

Jay