Maintaining cycled rock

[b2smoov]

We would first factor what you used to be certain it is cycled

But not feed one single thing for a few months, proving the ability of water bacteria seeded into water to get food even if we don't provide it. That's a big deal in reefing

Millions of dollars of things to prevent bacteria starvation are sold to us annually

But I bet it's a lark I bet they don't starve and you could test that. Simply don't feed, and I bet your original cycle close criterion still works in 60 days, or 600 days.

If your cycle can't pass, you toss in one pinch of ground up fish food and wait ten days then it'll pass.


But I bet they won't starve, due to a series of posts by MSteven1 starting page 98 of Dr. Reefs giant bottle bac testing threads.

As of last night I tested ammonia and I was getting a 0ppm result using API. I started at 2.0ppm. I then added ammonia to raise to 2ppm. I will be testing again in a few hours to see if ammonia is present. Assuming it is not then I assume my rock is cycled.

I was planning on doing a 100% water change tomorrow. My nitrates are at 30ppm tested with Hanna.

Assuming the cycle is complete being verified by 0ppm ammonia, should I still do the water change and then do nothing else?

I'm guessing I would confirm the bacterial population is still intact by raising the ammonia to 2ppm the day before I plan to start up the new system to then see if ammonia is present 24 hours later. Does that sound like the right way to see if the bacteria are still viable?

 

[brandon429]

yes for sure that sounds great and is a simple test of your already planned approach. if it sticks or won't pass, that fish food will permanently boost it once it sets a week or so. I predict the initial nutrients given during the cycle created a biofilm that acquires feed (that the house contaminates in) and insulates and does all kinds of things. 60 days should be an easy test of those.

 

[b2smoov]

yes for sure that sounds great and is a simple test of your already planned approach. if it sticks or won't pass, that fish food will permanently boost it once it sets a week or so. I predict the initial nutrients given during the cycle created a biofilm that acquires feed and insulates and does all kinds of things. 60 days should be an easy test of those.

Just to confirm do you still recommend the water change? It's only about 22 gallons.

 

[brandon429]

agreed its a good idea, it removes floating bac cells, dissolved feed sources from the initial cycling buildup and stress tests the rocks by starting in food-free water.

it's not true that reef cycle bacteria adhere to rocks only, reef tanks have enough circulation shear to shave off sloughs and rafts and cast them around the tank as suspended items. filter bac ride those rafts on a constant basis. what's floating in your water helps pass the initial test to some degree, but after a full water change every slant will be in favor of the starve so if they still pass, that's awesome.

 

[b2smoov]

agreed its a good idea, it removes floating bac cells, dissolved feed sources from the initial cycling buildup and stress tests the rocks by starting in food-free water.

Ok. I'll share ammonia test results this evening and give it a shot. I'm not overly concerned about losing the cycle because I'll be adding a significant amount of 2+ year rock from my current system to the new one. I'm upgrading from a 55 to a 150. Also will be seeding some sand from the current to the new.

 

[brandon429]

nice detail. it's only fun to test that dry started portion, with the barest initial givings that allowed the initial test to pass. already cured live rock is so powerful and full of its own feed stores/organics and life/ it will ruin the test by overtaking the ability of the dry test rock right at the start.

this is a skip cycle build, moving any degree of old live rock over and putting it in the display vs the sump = skip cycle setup. this extra rock won't even need to be cycled, as long as the old live rock is positioned well inside the display vs hidden off down low in a sump.

but I bet it will be cycled. thanks for the fun test!

 

[Dmmz]

Following

 

[Dan_P]

Hello everyone,

I have about 60 or so pounds of dry rock that has finished cycling in a brute can using Dr. Tims. I would like to keep it in the can for another couple of months until I set up my new system. My question is how much ammonia should I add to the can and how often to maintain the bacteria population?

Thanks

Sure add ammonia to feed the bacteria. They are fairly hardy and not likely to die off, but without food any bacteria will start to shut down. You probably built up a population that will consume 1-2 ppm in a couple days. You probably don’t need that much capacity so if you feed the bacteria once per week, say 0.5-1 ppm ammonia, the population will die back a bit but you will still have a strong population. Don’t bother supplying ammonia indirectly with fish food. That’s a crap shoot as to how much ammonia is actually being generated and on top of that the heterotrophic bacteria eating the fish food may over grow and smother the ammonia oxidizers you worked so hard to grow,
.

 

[b2smoov]

This is my current system and the two structures that I am cycling. I will be making another structure from my current systems rock to put in the middle as well as a few pieces scattered about. I am also planning on breaking up some of the rock into small pieces to then attach to the new structures. I don't think I'll use all the rock from the current system but will place what I can in my sump. Obviously I want to use as much of it as I can.

 

[brandon429]

your tank is going to benefit from the inevitable rip cleaning that will happen across the move too. nice aging in that prior tank, it will be refreshed and new in the current setup and it'll skip cycle over using 1/3 of that much rock, that's a low fish bioload there. very high surface area cured rock, it's a skip cycle setup plan for that cured portion.

 

[b2smoov]

Sure add ammonia to feed the bacteria. They are fairly hardy and not likely to die off, but without food any bacteria will start to shut down. You probably built up a population that will consume 1-2 ppm in a couple days. You probably don’t need that much capacity so if you feed the bacteria once per week, say 0.5-1 ppm ammonia, the population will die back a bit but you will still have a strong population. Don’t bother supplying ammonia indirectly with fish food. That’s a crap shoot as to how much ammonia is actually being generated and on top of that the heterotrophic bacteria eating the fish food may over grow and smother the ammonia oxidizers you worked so hard to grow,
.

Appreciate your feedback but I think I'm going to try a little experiment. If you read back a few posts you'll see what I'm testing. Basically I'm going to do a water change tomorrow assuming the rock is cycled and then change nothing. In about 2 months time I will then raise ammonia to 2ppm to then see if it is converted in a 24-48 hour period. Thus proving or disproving the need for prolonged ammonia feeding to maintain the bacterial population.

 

[b2smoov]

your tank is going to benefit from the inevitable rip cleaning that will happen across the move too. nice aging in that prior tank, it will be refreshed and new in the current setup and it'll skip cycle over using 1/3 of that much rock, that's a low fish bioload there. very high surface area cured rock, it's a skip cycle setup plan for that cured portion.

Yeah I currently only have two clowns, a flasher wrasse, a bicolor blenny, a sailfin tang and a Christmas wrasse. I'll be donating the Christmas wrasse to a lfs because I'm tired of him getting sand on my corals. I won't be adding any new fish to the upgrade for a couple weeks after it's up and running.

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P this is perhaps #1 or #2 on my list of important seneye tests but for a much longer wait period, a year would be great. Just a bubbling bucket of test rocks in someone's room topped off and bubbling, room temp is ok given that timeframe, and stress test it after 12 mos fallow. I predict it'll pass.

Even though getting lucky here with a seneye isn't likely its a fine stand in to know how the first cycle was deemed ready then we'll just run that same assessment at the end of the fallow wait.

Would we start with dry rock that has been previously treated with nitrifying bacteria until it developed a capacity for consuming say 1 ppm ammonia in 24 hours? Then, we would store it in aerated clean saltwater for months, with no light. Then compare the activity when first cycled to the activity after sitting months. Is that the idea? Would you be happy with 12 pieces of rubble about the same size so that I can measure the activity of a one piece of rubble every month without breaking the fast of the rest of the rubble? I would come up with a way to have roughly equal size pieces, like cubes or slabs.

 

[Dan_P]

Appreciate your feedback but I think I'm going to try a little experiment. If you read back a few posts you'll see what I'm testing. Basically I'm going to do a water change tomorrow assuming the rock is cycled and then change nothing. In about 2 months time I will then raise ammonia to 2ppm to then see if it is converted in a 24-48 hour period. Thus proving or disproving the need for prolonged ammonia feeding to maintain the bacterial population.

I like the idea. I just replied to Brandon about running a small scale experiment like you propose. Looking forwards to your results.

 

[brandon429]

its so good I will contribute $ to it in fact. I'm hungry for the data. can you pm me an email linked to paypal somehow I'll send a little zipster booster over. seneye data/ I want in on the first rounds and some setup cost balance is great for good rare new cycling science data.

 

[b2smoov]

I like the idea. I just replied to Brandon about running a small scale experiment like you propose. Looking forwards to your results.

I'm kind of excited about this and others who try new things. I feel as hobby aquarists we can break new ground that otherwise wouldn't be tested. I'll be updating tonight with an ammonia test, as well as any other updates that seem important. I may do a build thread when I set up the new tank. I'm by no means an experienced reefer, in fact a bit lazy but I enjoy it.

 

[b2smoov]

I wonder if an aquabiomics test of the water the new rock has been sitting in for two months would offer anything of value to our findings.

 

[brandon429]

not sure, I wouldn't value that data over ammonia control data simply because multiple clades can accomplish that, and reefers don't care which is which as long as the planned bioload lives

whatever strains are at work don't matter much, but if the cost is worth it that's interesting to see. I haven't seen such a report before. really stress test it though, two months isn't much time beyond tests he's already ran and posted online.

if you're going to pay for dna sequencing do some sort of a longer test using a bucket setup is my opinion

 

[b2smoov]

not sure, I wouldn't value that data over ammonia control data simply because multiple clades can accomplish that, and reefers don't care which is which as long as the planned bioload lives

whatever strains are at work don't matter much, but if the cost is worth it that's interesting to see. I haven't seen such a report before. really stress test it though, two months isn't much time beyond tests he's already ran and posted online.

if you're going to pay for dna sequencing do some sort of a longer test using a bucket setup is my opinion

It may go longer but not much. I want to have the new tank up and stable by my birthday in June. Seems like a good excuse to justify asking for coral for my birthday.

 

[brandon429]

good plan for sure I'll watch for the updates, thats so fun thanks for trying out something unique.