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MarinePure Removal

Spare time

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I think I will dose bio spira, wait a couple days and dose eco balance. Thanks for the input!
Have you considered replacing the MarinePure with a loose (passive flow) sponge? This would serve the same purpose as the ceramic medium without the crumbling (I've sold a lot of that stuff and know exactly what you're talking about). I think both fishface and Spare Time are correct in that there definitely are some small number of nitrifying bacteria on the outside (i.e. aerobic) surfaces of the medium, though the majority of the inner surfaces (most of the block) are likely colonized by anaerobic (e.g. denitrifying) microbes. Thus, while you might not experience a substantial spike in NH4/NO2 after removing the MarinePure from this type of application, you could actually see elevated NO3 concentrations a bit further down the road. This is why I'd recommend an anaerobe such as R. palustris (PNS ProBio) that assimilates NH4, NO2 and especially NO3. I've soaked ProBio directly into a sponge and used this as the sole source of filtration in a newly set up and heavily fed NPS system--never had any sort of nitrogen cycling issues, even with minimal water exchange.

On the NPS system, do you do water changes or run anything else? I have not personally used PNS probio but I list that as one of the good biodiversity products out there when people ask. I was thinking of getting some just for the heck of it.
 
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Kenneth Wingerter

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On the NPS system, do you do water changes or run anything else? I have not personally used PNS probio but I list that as one of the good biodiversity products out there when people ask. I was thinking of getting some just for the heck of it.
I use zero "filtration" per se. The sponge is just a place for bacteria (especially anaerobes) to reside, since water doesn't actually flow through it. In the comment above I did "lie" a little bit as I additionally use a bag of AquaChar, though this product was (again) added more as a high-surface area colonization site for microbes than for filtration. I feed a Dendronephthya in there substantial doses of PNS ProBio daily, more recently pouring it through the bag of AquaChar which is suspended near the surface. I've performed a couple water changes, but that just seemed to irritate the corals more than benefit them so that has been reduced to nearly negligable volumes. Long story short, this small experimental system is pretty much all pumps and no filter with extremely minimal water exchange.
 

MnFish1

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Unfortunately, it is dry Marco rock. However, I’m in month five of it being in the tank so I’m thinking it’s pretty well established at this point.
after a month - dry rock is 'live rock'.... from a bacterial standpoint. I would remove it - and add some bacteria if you want - like Fritz 9000. My guess is you will be fine - of course there is no way to know for sure. You could also take it out - break it in half - put the 1/2 back in - and then in a month take it all out - but - my opinion - just take it out
 

K7BMG

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To me this is simple but a few questions are needing answered.
How many pounds of rock do you currently have in your system?
Is the system bare bottom or have substrate, if substrate how thick and how many pounds did you add.
What percentage of the total surface would the block be in comparison to the rest of the materials?
If its 50% then yes will be an issue. Something tells me the block is less than 10% of the overall.
So pull it. It would be the equivalent of adding a couple of fish into the system.
 

Spare time

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I use zero "filtration" per se. The sponge is just a place for bacteria (especially anaerobes) to reside, since water doesn't actually flow through it. In the comment above I did "lie" a little bit as I additionally use a bag of AquaChar, though this product was (again) added more as a high-surface area colonization site for microbes than for filtration. I feed a Dendronephthya in there substantial doses of PNS ProBio daily, more recently pouring it through the bag of AquaChar which is suspended near the surface. I've performed a couple water changes, but that just seemed to irritate the corals more than benefit them so that has been reduced to nearly negligable volumes. Long story short, this small experimental system is pretty much all pumps and no filter with extremely minimal water exchange.

Im doing something similar but only carbon and macro algae. I do no water changes and run no skimmer. How do you like AquaChar? I have never heard of it before
 
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Kenneth Wingerter

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I'm a fan of picoplankton, so like you I tend not to use skimmers. Also like you I dig macroalgae, which is partly why I like carbon (which removes all of the yellowing compounds released by the algae).

AquaChar? I love it. Chemically and structurally it's a bit different from and superior to traditional activated carbon. It has crazy porosity and a really, really strong affinity for organics. Due to some quirks of its physiochemical structure, it actually helps to maintain an appropriately alkaline environment. And what really appeals to me is that it's actually engineered to act as a biological, as well as chemical, medium. I guess I also like the price of AquaChar... it might seem expensive when you shop GAC by volume (the wrong way), but when you see how much it removes and how long it lasts it seems like a great deal; particularly when space is limiting.
 

brandon429

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No reef tank runs short on surface area if we removed your sandbed and those blocks all at once, we have 36 page threads on this with repeated jobs measured digitally seneye/mindstream where you can truly see if ammonia lacks control after instant surface area removal

it doesnt, in any reef using those meters. in reefs using api and red sea, hold onto your socks

adding bac here to make up for a surface area deficit (claimed, never the case with live rock presence) stays in suspension and then is skimmed out, theres no where for it to attach in a matured post cycle reef.

a matured reef has all its surfaces maxed out on bac, just because we add some to the water as trained doesnt mean its making a change other than in the pockets of sellers


* stacking more bacteria on top of each other does not increase filtration capacity. If it did, dirty canister filters would get more efficient over time vs needing to be cleaned out. We decrease wastewater presentation surface area when bacteria stack on layers thick, it decreases filtration efficiency

the highest efficiency is the thinnest possible clean layer of filtration bac and water scooting over ever surface, the opposite of how we think bacteria work. its not in the bulk, its in the surface area presentation.



When we add bacteria to already full systems, we think they stack onto rocks making a double-work layer, they dont. rock surfaces manage their own bacteria levels (water shear, nutrient presence, interspace competition on the actual surface, many ways) and when they dont, we get the bac bloom posts

adding extra bac without adding extra attachment points is counterproductive and a waste of $ and lessens filtration ability and competes for 02


we would just remove the blocks, and whatever else you wanted to remove- only the live rock matters, and will handle your whole fish loading instantly, we show in the sand rinse thread using seneye and mindstream to track instant sandbed removals (the greatest surface area insult you can do to a reef)

If reef tanks commonly used too little live rock we wouldnt be out to 36 pages not asking for details about their live rock, we are trained to overdo surface area in reefing and that does take place, its easy to remove 3/4 of the other working surface area in the tank knowing the live rock is stacked 2 or 3 times over requirement as well, in all tanks we see.

There was one fella out there with corals the size of elk antlers grown over tiny little nubs of live rock as a base, it had literally no spare live rock other than elk antlers attached to nubs. That reef was from mars, all the rest here on earth have overdone the live rock

Do not purchase bottle bac for this job. we remove orders more surface area than these blocks in the simplest sandbed swap which is now up to ~200 + on file
 
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brandon429

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That thread is using key similar terms we are, we should watch it unfold. Not only are we watching excellent filtration design, but we're discussing the need for it and Lasse has aquaculture management/production facilities management backround so he brings his surface area game there.


If we begin to include surface area truths in our reefing rules, we save money, take no guesses, and design better reef tanks. So far the hobby is chiefly about the liquid bacteria additive portion, not the attachment points or how those points self-regulate naturally.
 

MnFish1

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No reef tank runs short on surface area if we removed your sandbed and those blocks all at once, we have 36 page threads on this with repeated jobs measured digitally seneye/mindstream where you can truly see if ammonia lacks control after instant surface area removal

it doesnt, in any reef using those meters. in reefs using api and red sea, hold onto your socks

adding bac here to make up for a surface area deficit (claimed, never the case with live rock presence) stays in suspension and then is skimmed out, theres no where for it to attach in a matured post cycle reef.

a matured reef has all its surfaces maxed out on bac, just because we add some to the water as trained doesnt mean its making a change other than in the pockets of sellers


* stacking more bacteria on top of each other does not increase filtration capacity. If it did, dirty canister filters would get more efficient over time vs needing to be cleaned out. We decrease wastewater presentation surface area when bacteria stack on layers thick, it decreases filtration efficiency

the highest efficiency is the thinnest possible clean layer of filtration bac and water scooting over ever surface, the opposite of how we think bacteria work. its not in the bulk, its in the surface area presentation.



When we add bacteria to already full systems, we think they stack onto rocks making a double-work layer, they dont. rock surfaces manage their own bacteria levels (water shear, nutrient presence, interspace competition on the actual surface, many ways) and when they dont, we get the bac bloom posts

adding extra bac without adding extra attachment points is counterproductive and a waste of $ and lessens filtration ability and competes for 02


we would just remove the blocks, and whatever else you wanted to remove- only the live rock matters, and will handle your whole fish loading instantly, we show in the sand rinse thread using seneye and mindstream to track instant sandbed removals (the greatest surface area insult you can do to a reef)

If reef tanks commonly used too little live rock we wouldnt be out to 36 pages not asking for details about their live rock, we are trained to overdo surface area in reefing and that does take place, its easy to remove 3/4 of the other working surface area in the tank knowing the live rock is stacked 2 or 3 times over requirement as well, in all tanks we see.

There was one fella out there with corals the size of elk antlers grown over tiny little nubs of live rock as a base, it had literally no spare live rock other than elk antlers attached to nubs. That reef was from mars, all the rest here on earth have overdone the live rock

Do not purchase bottle bac for this job. we remove orders more surface area than these blocks in the simplest sandbed swap which is now up to ~200 + on file
I will take a small issue with you - only in theory. Lets say - I have a tank - 100 gallons - with 10 pounds of dry rock - and 1 clown fish - and I have another 100 gallon tank - with 300 lbs (packed dry rock) - with one clown fish - what gives you the idea - that (over the same time period) lets say a month - that all of the surface will be covered with bacteria? Because - at least if we're talking about 'obligate autotrophs' - they will not grow without 'food' - i.e. ammonia.
 

brandon429

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I'm dealing only with post-cycle substrates in our work above.

*I think its to your point to say that we'd accept any entrant in the sand rinse thread for full takedown cleaning even if they're only 1 day past the cycle completion timeframe/can still oxidize free ammonia even after 100% water change.

my claim is post-cycled means spaces are full, and able to be cleaned without loss of ability and that sand and side filters can be removed leaving only the newly cycled rocks as the biofilter.


Your question is more of a cycle prediction time, how fast they take on the 1st covering of bacteria above I'm saying that we've never seen live rock use unable to carry the entire tank's bioload when live rock is made the only substrate to filter in post-cycle reefs.

we can't remove enough surface area to become unable to control ammonia in every reef tank Ive seen. but if we're on api or red sea, even the current reef is unable to control ammonia heh
 
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K7BMG

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Just making the point that this is not a two way street here.

You must have an adequate amount of surface area compared to the tank load.
Yes 100 pounds of rock and one fish will never be an issue.

If you have a 100G tank with 50 1-2 inch fish and only 10 pounds of rock the tank would not survive. Yes I know there are all the other surfaces that the bacteria can adhere to.
But as brandon429 states the bacteria does not stack up on itself.

None the less I do not feel that removing the block from the OP's system, when there is active rock and sand currently in operation will be of any consequence, unless the percentage of the removal is near 40-50% of the overall volume of surface area with no reduction of load.
 

802ScubaFish

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If it's not to far gone you could attempt to take small chunks of it out over a period of time (instead of the whole piece in one go) while replacing with the new media choice.. that way you're only losing small bits of the established stuff at a time?
 

Spare time

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I'm a fan of picoplankton, so like you I tend not to use skimmers. Also like you I dig macroalgae, which is partly why I like carbon (which removes all of the yellowing compounds released by the algae).

AquaChar? I love it. Chemically and structurally it's a bit different from and superior to traditional activated carbon. It has crazy porosity and a really, really strong affinity for organics. Due to some quirks of its physiochemical structure, it actually helps to maintain an appropriately alkaline environment. And what really appeals to me is that it's actually engineered to act as a biological, as well as chemical, medium. I guess I also like the price of AquaChar... it might seem expensive when you shop GAC by volume (the wrong way), but when you see how much it removes and how long it lasts it seems like a great deal; particularly when space is limiting.

My only concern would be that removing it after months would be like removing biomedia which in my case has led to destabilization and dinos. Do you run it in a reactor?
 

Kenneth Wingerter

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My only concern would be that removing it after months would be like removing biomedia which in my case has led to destabilization and dinos. Do you run it in a reactor?
The AquaChar? No, I just hang it in a media bag. I don't plan on removing it (it serves as a primarily anaerobic biomedium). If I use additional AquaChar for chemical filtration (to be replaced periodically), I'll use a separate bag.
 

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