Melanerus Wrasse not doing well in QT

[Dodgersfan]

i put 2 halichores wrasses (timorensis and melanarus) in QT yesterday, both were very active at the LFS and had been there over a week. They were in coral tanks with sand and live rock. I put them in a 20 breeder to to TTM, barebottom with a Tupperware full of sand. Both seemed a little freaked out by the barebottom last night, but I figured they’d find the sand. There were also pvc pieces in the tank. This morning both were wedged under pvc, by the afternoon the Timor’s was out and the melanarus was laying in its side in a pvc pipe. It perked up and dawn straight when I picked up the pvc, but didn’t swim away. I set the pvc in the sand and he swam out onto the sand. But now he’s just sort of laying there on his side. Breathing is a little labored. The Timor’s seems fine, colors are washed out and he’s still kinda freaked out by the bottom.


I’ve lost some fish lately in QT and shortly after from what I think is stress caused by the ttm (no one has ever shown signs of any disease). I am thinking about switching to the dump and pray method. Ttm is expensive, time consuming, and I’m still loosing fish. My LFS doesn’t run copper in the coral tanks (where almost all the fish I buy from them are kept. And I’ve never seen any signs of itch or velvet in any of their tanks or on any fish I’ve gotten from them. I’ve seen white poop from intestinal parasites, but I’ve also lost 2 wrasses when dosing Prazi in TTM.... my success rate in ttm has only been about 50% I’m losing a lot of fish and I’m starting to feel like it’s not worth the extra time, expense and stress on the fish. I am sticking mainly wrasses. Anyone have any advise or thoughts about what’s going on with the melanarus?

@eatbreakfast @evolved

 

[Dodgersfan]

@4FordFamily @mdbannister @melypr1985 #reefsquad

Anyone have any ideas? Is this “normal” behavior for a stressed/freaked out halichores or something to worry about?

 

[jelazar]

I would be concerned. Labored breathing, laying on its side, and loss of color all indicate that your fish are having a hard time breathing.

TTM works for ich, but not for other common parasites like velvet, brook, or flukes. Have you done anything about those parasites? They're quite common. IME it's also common for velvet to kill fish without any visible parasites on the body.

I would do a five-minute freshwater bath. It won't cure the fish, but it will knock off most of any parasites and give your fish some relief.

 

[Lasse]

There will be many answers following the disease path. I´m not an expert on this - instead I will try to follow the path of intoxication (not by vodka but I could not find another word )

I would start with the most obvious questions - have your prior lost in QT shown the same pattern?
If - is anything of your used decorations toxic.
Is the PVC pipes new and content plasticizer?
The bowl - type of material? The gravel?
Is it a new aquaria or the same as you use prior this??
What type of silicone glue is it. Any chance it can content substances that are anti mold ?
If it is no to all of these questions -
do you have toxic levels of free ammonia in the tank (NH3)? if no -
Have the fishes been transported during more than 24 hours?
If so - how did you acclimatize them?
Are you using ant chemical air cleaners
Are you using scented candles

If you have excluded all chemical pathways - read the suggestions from the disease experts

If you still do not get ant good answer and decide to - what you say - dump and pray - you can do it in a way that maybe do not need so many prayers. If you have a refugium - put the there for a week or two. But it is wrasse - not to deep sand bed My was 20 cm and a wrasse - I solved it but…… Otherwise you maybe have a calm part of your sump to use. Net cages of fresh water "guppy breeder type" can be useful - in the sump or in the DT. The main idea is that the newcomers should have a protected to be the first time - avoiding bulling from the old fishes. A method I use by myself - always.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HotRocks]

Just first thing that always comes to mind with QT, are you using an ammonia badge or testing ammonia?

Could be an issue with that.

I personally wouldn't go with dump and pray currently. Wrasse are typhiod Mary's. They commonly carry parasites without visible symptoms.

@Lasse has had much success using his methods for many years. So if that is the route you take, I think you will need to research to add alot of equipment to your DT, things like diatom filters, UV, and Oxydators. My fear is how contaminated our distribution system is right now, where in Europe and other places around the world have much more stringent practices in regards to disease control in place throughout the distribution system.

They are your fish obviously and the choice is yours.

 

[norfolkgarden]

As someone who never quarantined fish I would say to continue quarantine.
Maybe not TTM but the rest of it definitely.

I have lost a lot of fish due to them looking great in the store in 1.018 salinity and then not being okay in 1.025 when the disease bounces back.

We set up our first 20 gallon quarantine tank this month.

Hope your wrasses do well.

 

[Dodgersfan]

I would be concerned. Labored breathing, laying on its side, and loss of color all indicate that your fish are having a hard time breathing.

TTM works for ich, but not for other common parasites like velvet, brook, or flukes. Have you done anything about those parasites? They're quite common. IME it's also common for velvet to kill fish without any visible parasites on the body.

I would do a five-minute freshwater bath. It won't cure the fish, but it will knock off most of any parasites and give your fish some relief.

I do 2 rounds of Prazi as part of my QT protocol. But these fish are new, they haven’t received anything yet. This guy has been in qt just a hair over 24 hours at this point and was acting funny less than 12 hours in. Wouldnt a fresh water bath be really stressful on him if he’s already stressed to the point of just laying on his side?

 

[Dodgersfan]

There will be many answers following the disease path. I´m not an expert on this - instead I will try to follow the path of intoxication (not by vodka but I could not find another word )

I would start with the most obvious questions - have your prior lost in QT shown the same pattern?
If - is anything of your used decorations toxic.
Is the PVC pipes new and content plasticizer?
The bowl - type of material? The gravel?
Is it a new aquaria or the same as you use prior this??
What type of silicone glue is it. Any chance it can content substances that are anti mold ?
If it is no to all of these questions -
do you have toxic levels of free ammonia in the tank (NH3)? if no -
Have the fishes been transported during more than 24 hours?
If so - how did you acclimatize them?
Are you using ant chemical air cleaners
Are you using scented candles

If you have excluded all chemical pathways - read the suggestions from the disease experts

If you still do not get ant good answer and decide to - what you say - dump and pray - you can do it in a way that maybe do not need so many prayers. If you have a refugium - put the there for a week or two. But it is wrasse - not to deep sand bed My was 20 cm and a wrasse - I solved it but…… Otherwise you maybe have a calm part of your sump to use. Net cages of fresh water "guppy breeder type" can be useful - in the sump or in the DT. The main idea is that the newcomers should have a protected to be the first time - avoiding bulling from the old fishes. A method I use by myself - always.

Sincerely Lasse

Hi lasse, I appreciate you chiming in, ive followed some of your threads and you are actually a big reason I’m thinking about totally changing my approach towards the immune approach rather than the quarantine approach, but it does seem pretty daunting, I’ve not seen a lot of people other than you that have had a great deal of success, and you’ve spent a lifetime perfecting your fishkeeping. I don’t think it will be that easy to replicate just from reading some posts...


Anyway to answer your questions. The pvc was new when I got it (from Home Depot) I have us d it for several months through several different batches of quarantine, but a so noted in only getting about a 50% survival rate througbquarintine, so positioning from something in the pvc leaching into the water can’t be ruled out. But in this particular circumstance it has been in the water with the fish for less than 12 hours, i Would think if it was leaching something it would take longer than that. The bowl is plastic Tupperware, I usually use it to thaw frozen food for the fish in QT, this is the first time I’ve had it submerged. The sand is new Carib sea live sand. The water is 2/3 water from the LFS (same water they have been in for 2 weeks) and 1/3rd water from my DT. I have an ammonia alert badge and it is reading 0. I have had elevated phosphates in the DT recently, but no nitrite, low nitrate and no ammonia. The qt aquarium I’ve been using for about 6 months and through several other qts. I clean it with distilled vinegar and rinse completely between uses.

 

[Dodgersfan]

Just first thing that always comes to mind with QT, are you using an ammonia badge or testing ammonia?

Could be an issue with that.

I personally wouldn't go with dump and pray currently. Wrasse are typhiod Mary's. They commonly carry parasites without visible symptoms.

@Lasse has had much success using his methods for many years. So if that is the route you take, I think you will need to research to add alot of equipment to your DT, things like diatom filters, UV, and Oxydators. My fear is how contaminated our distribution system is right now, where in Europe and other places around the world have much more stringent practices in regards to disease control in place throughout the distribution system.

They are your fish obviously and the choice is yours.

Those are good points. I do have an ammonia alert badge and it is at zero. I have a Red Sea ammonia kit I could use to confirm
That. I haven’t check d the salinity, the LFS told me the water I got from them was at 1.025 but there could have been a mistake on their end when they mixed it. I have 1 bucket left I haven’t used yet. I’ll go check that now.

 

[Dodgersfan]

As someone who never quarantined fish I would say to continue quarantine.
Maybe not TTM but the rest of it definitely.

I have lost a lot of fish due to them looking great in the store in 1.018 salinity and then not being okay in 1.025 when the disease bounces back.

We set up our first 20 gallon quarantine tank this month.

Hope your wrasses do well.

Thanks for the reply, a reminder that the grass isn’t always greener is helpful. I’ve lost half of the fish I put through quarantine, and I’ve said to my self “dump and pray can’t be any worse”. But I guess it can. 50% survival is better than 0% survival I guess.

 

[Dodgersfan]

Red Sea test is registering 0.2 ammonia.... the ammonia alert badge might be bad... I’m gonna pull them out of the QT and put them in a fresh tank with water from the DT.

 

[eatbreakfast]

A fish laying on it's side is never good.

Finding ammonia isn't surprising.

I use meds and found it overall less stressful than ttm. But in any case, whether meds or ttm to not start a protocol until the fish have settled a bit.

 

[Dodgersfan]

Red Sea test is registering 0.2 ammonia.... the ammonia alert badge might be bad... I’m gonna pull them out of the QT and put them in a fresh tank with water from the DT.

Well the melanarus is dead. I got the Timor’s into a new tank with fresh water, so hopefully he will be ok. He never showed any of the same symptoms. The melanarus was a good bit larger and they were in the same sized bag. One thing I did notice thinking back was that the melanarus was thrashing in his bag a good deal while I was floating them before release. I dumped the bag water into The QT tank with them since they were going into water that was from the same source as the tank they came from. Maybe there was ammonia buildup in the bag that caused damage... and I guess I need new ammonia alert badges, the one that was in the qt was less than 6 months old.

 

[Dodgersfan]

A fish laying on it's side is never good.

Finding ammonia isn't surprising.

I use meds and found it overall less stressful than ttm. But in any case, whether meds or ttm to not start a protocol until the fish have settled a bit.

That was the strange thing. The fish had been in the tank less than 24 hours, I hadn’t started anything yet. Just feeding and letting them get settled in. I guess it might have been ammonia buildup in the bag. It was a 3 1/2 inch fish in a regular sized bag, probably an hour from bagging in the LFS till releasing in the qt tank, maybe a bit more.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

it can be frustrating at times but if you think your percentage is bad now, wait till you dump and pray with a fish that brings velvet to your tank.

100% loss of fish you have had for awhile and love is not an easy thing to deal with (ask me how I know).

My melenarus was very freaked out when I brought him home, I had a bowl of sand and he hid in it for like 10 days straight. Now he is tough as nails. I treated him with copper and prazi once I got him eating.

 

[Lasse]

Red Sea test is registering 0.2 ammonia.... the ammonia alert badge might be bad... I’m gonna pull them out of the QT and put them in a fresh tank with water from the DT.

By my experiences ans strictly IMO - the Red Sea ammonia test often show just 0.2 to 0.25 even with no ammonia at all. Even if you have 0.2 ppm as ammonia in Red Sea Test - it show the whole complex NH3/NH4 (both the toxic and non toxic form). Translated into toxic level of NH3 (the real result the badge show - it only show NH3) - the ammonia test of Red Sea in the range of 0.2 ppm will only be around 0.01 ppm NH3 at 25 degree C and pH around 8. At the same temperature - pH around 8.5 - real NH3 level will be around 0.03 ppm - non of these levels toxic in the short run.

I have always advocate that do not use the NH3/NH4 hobby tests that rely on the same principles as the Red Sea test - they very often show wrong values - (this include the NH3/NH4 test of Hanna) The SeaChem test rely on other principles - it is monitoring the toxic gas NH3 directly. We do not have this badges in Sweden and I have not test them at all - it means no experiences of it. But based on principles - I would probably rely more on these badges than I rely on the NH3/NH4 test.

Yes - I understand that you do not will run into a total new way of thinking because some old fossils write this on internet when the majority advocate the opposite. I would probably join your way of handling if I did not have this backpack of painful experience that I have. I use to state to people that I speak to - If your system to work with your aquarium works well - the worst ting you can do is to run home and try to do the way I advocate - it probably leads to a disaster - just keep up your good work. But - if it does noth work smothly with your own regime - just consider my advices and slowly incorporate them with your thoughts and aquarium system. Just as slowly that you get experiences by your self how your system work.

The best thing - in my eyes - with your QT is that you do not use any prophylactic treatment with chemicals. If I should come with any advices in your case it would be to in the first stage.

Construct your QT tank as natural as possible. Make it bare bottom but with a dark bottom - nor see through. Use interior decorations without calcareous substances. Use an internal foam filter with high flow - type EHEIM Powerline XL (2252). If you can purchase this filter in US - I recommend it - and in a QT - the use of its diffusor. This filter was the only one that was able to maintain a stable oxygen level in a heavy loaded tank back in a test I did back around 1995. This filterpack is basically the same filter that was introduced around 1982!!! and it is the only diffusor I have tested that actually do any gas exchange according to oxygen at least.

If possible - make the QT to be a part of your main system or at least make it easy to use your DT water as WC. Run it in a normal manner when you do not use it as QT. Use som mollies or guppies as load fish. Do not overfeed - feed only fresh or frozen food. the reason to use "load fish" is dubble - normally they maintain the bacteria cycles in the aquaria together with the filter and with newcomers - they act as companions. Our fishes comes from heavy populated reefs - always many fish around - if they not see any fish around - danger - they others have seen something that I miss - Seek cover - stress.

I would use this tank just for observations and do no prophylactic treatment - just observ for a week or two. If everything looks great - slowly do water changes with your DT water. Goal - the fish should have the same smell as your DT residents already have. IMO - this has a huge importance in order to avoid bulling stress in the moment you introduce your new fishes. If you connect it to your main system - a good UVC on all outgoing water is a good idea (What I think is a good UVC - se this thread and post). When it is time for QT a fish - just close the inlet and let the internal filter doing its stuff or have a slow pass by. If the new fishes show signs of disease - close the inlet from the main system and treat for de disease. I´n not so pleased of the idea to use water from LFS and to let the water of the bag coming into your water - I would avoid that.

I hope this give you (and others) something to think of. But remember - do not do what I suggest if it works the way you want - if it do not work well - just think of my ideas and try to decide how to incorporate this in a good way in your system. A foreign student once say to me (She was not used of the Swedish education system) - You do not tell/know the answer and you want me to use my own brain to figure it out, insane!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Big G]

Red Sea test is registering 0.2 ammonia.... the ammonia alert badge might be bad... I’m gonna pull them out of the QT and put them in a fresh tank with water from the DT.

Seachem Ammonia Alert Badges should be positioned about 1/2 way down the height of the tank, away from any light sources as possible. Reading the badge, it's important to light the badge from "behind" with a small flashlight, to get an accurate color reading.

 

[OrionN]

I think just transfer him from LFS to home and into QT without feeding, ammonia is not the problem., does not matter what the test said. I have never test for ammonia in nearly 30 years of reefing. I think your Melanurus died form stress/stress induced injury. I have lost wrasses, but never other fish, due to transfer induced stress.

My QT protocol is to put them in a QT reef, 40 gal with sump, with sand bed, fully lighted and with coral and clams in it. I also use this tank as a frag tank when not use as QT. This tank can be diverted to isolation with it's own sump or diverted and move the return pump to the main sump to put it in the same circulation with the main system. I don't treat new fish for disease unless I see it while in QT. IMHO, TTM for me kill more fish than the number of fish save by doing this method trying to control Ich.

Regardless of what you do for QT, it is reasonable to get the fish settle and stress free before initiate your protocol.

 

[eatbreakfast]

The problem with only observing wrasses and treating if something shows up is that wrasses have a thicker slime coat than other fishes, so they rarely show symptoms, but can be carriers.

 

[HotRocks]

The problem with only observing wrasses and treating if something shows up is that wrasses have a thicker slime coat than other fishes, so they rarely show symptoms, but can be carriers.

+1, can't stress this enough. Especially with how widespread the issues are currently throughout the distribution system.