Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Lasse]

Can you share what is the nano bubble generator you have? I spent a few hours yesterday looking for one, and could not find one that I was sure would work. Also, I would be cautious in using pure oxygen, it might be a good idea to use compressed air. IMO it would far easier to overdose oxygen than air...

I would not use compressed air to make microbubbles - please read the post 108 in this thread. Super saturation of nitrogen gas (80% of air) is much more dangerous than supersaturation of oxygen gas according to bubble disease. Oxygen levels in a reef aquarium could easily reach more than 110 % saturation of oxygen if it is heavy lighted during day without any problems - (Yes I have measured it with oxygen sensors :))
If I remember right from my studies of fish physiology back at 1984 – it´s enough with 1 % supersaturation of nitrogen gas to cause bubble disease.

The graph show oxygen levels in a 10 000 litre aquarium with a lot of stony corals, no microbubbles but two large skimmers and a little refuge - lighted during night ours. The graph show exactly what Randy talks about in post 262.

However - to fill the aquarium with microbubbles of pure oxygen - that’s an other question

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I would not use compressed air to make microbubbles - please read the post 108 in this thread. Super saturation of nitrogen gas (80% of air) is much more dangerous than supersaturation of oxygen gas according to bubble disease. Oxygen levels in a reef aquarium could easily reach more than 110 % saturation of oxygen if it is heavy lighted during day without any problems - (Yes I have measured it with oxygen sensors :))
If I remember right from my studies of fish physiology back at 1984 – it´s enough with 1 % supersaturation of nitrogen gas to cause bubble disease.

Just curious, why does slight N2 supersaturation cause troubles by O2 does not?

 

[McMullen]

Thanks @Lasse and @Randy Holmes-Farley!

 

[Lasse]

Just curious, why does slight N2 supersaturation cause troubles by O2 does not?

I do not really know why but I think it has to do with supersaturation of N2 in the blood - compare with the bend (decompression sickness). I can´t find my old textbooks for the moment but I have had experiences with prolonged levels of oxygen > 120 % (caused of technical problems) on both rainbow trout, European eel, grass carp and catfishes without any problems with gass bubbel diseases.

In Sweden it is common at fish farms to oxygenate the water by mixing pure oxygen with water under pressure. I have never seen any gas bubble diseases in such cases.

However - if your pump sucks air on the suction side - when the bubble disease is common. In one case with leak at the suction side I could not read any supersaturation of oxygen in the water but the fishes show signs of bubble disease

For what its worth - this link is the only I could find at the moment https://en.wikivet.net/Gas_Bubble_Disease

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I do not really know why but I think it has to do with supersaturation of N2 in the blood - compare with the bend (decompression sickness). I can´t find my old textbooks for the moment but I have had experiences with prolonged levels of oxygen > 120 % (caused of technical problems) on both rainbow trout, European eel, grass carp and catfishes without any problems with gass bubbel diseases.

In Sweden it is common at fish farms to oxygenate the water by mixing pure oxygen with water under pressure. I have never seen any gas bubble diseases in such cases.

However - if your pump sucks air on the suction side - when the bubble disease is common. In one case with leak at the suction side I could not read any supersaturation of oxygen in the water but the fishes show signs of bubble disease

For what its worth - this link is the only I could find at the moment https://en.wikivet.net/Gas_Bubble_Disease

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks!

This sentence from your link is likely the explanation, that the O2 gets used by the fish so doesn't stay around as long:

"Most gas emboli are produced by excess nitrogen because oxygen is assimilated metabolically and thus less likely to form persistent bubbles. However, very high oxygen levels are dangerous."

 

[jent]

This is not something I have experimented with, but have been following. Something I keep wondering, but have not seen mentioned. Has anyone used electrolysis to generate the nano bubbles? In this case it would be O2 and H you would be dissolving, which at least would help the N2 concerns above. But it also seems like it could be a way to get to true nano bubbles.

Not sure, I personally am not willing to try it on my tank first, but it is something I wonder if anyone else has tried. I have looked at the kits normally used in hydroponics, there are a few of them, but an example:

http://www.o2grow.com/store

 

[cb684]

However - to fill the aquarium with microbubbles of pure oxygen - that’s an other question

That is what I thought I could be dangerous.

I would not try to supersaturate the water, but the ocean on tropical reefs can be supersaturated with O2 during the day.

Randy, what is the definition of O2 supersaturated water?

 

[timkenagy]

There is at least one company saying they are going to have a product for sale for this. And the harm is the same as using ginger to try to cure ich - there is no evidence that it does what people say it does.

Ginger cures ich? Any spicific type and where can I get one of these wonderful gingers you speak of at?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

That is what I thought I could be dangerous.


Randy, what is the definition of O2 supersaturated water?

Any gas, like O2, N2, or CO2, has an amount that dissolves into the water at equilibrium. Equilibrium means the amount that no more will dissolve no matter how long you wait.

The equilibrium amount that dissolves is approximately linearly related to the pressure of the gas above (or in contact with) the water. It also depends on temperature and salinity. higher temps means less dissolves. Lower salinity means more dissolves (at least for N2, O2).

So supersaturation means more is dissolved than is stable at equilibrium, and if you just wait, it will come out, either by bubbling off, or just coming off at the surface. Hopefully it does not come out inside of a fish, which is the concern above.

So if you start with cold seawater and saturate it with air, then raise the temp, it becomes supersaturated until some of the gas comes out somehow. Same could happen many other ways, such as by bubbling, photosynthesis making O2, etc.

Make sense?

 

[McMullen]

I feed my fish a steady diet of ginger and shark fin and I've never had an ich outbreak!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is not something I have experimented with, but have been following. Something I keep wondering, but have not seen mentioned. Has anyone used electrolysis to generate the nano bubbles? In this case it would be O2 and H you would be dissolving, which at least would help the N2 concerns above. But it also seems like it could be a way to get to true nano bubbles.
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I wouldn't want to produce or use pure O2, but it generally doesn't come from electrolysis of seawater because in addition to H2, you produce chlorine (Cl2) and a variety of other things:

http://benthamopen.com/contents/pdf/TOFCJ/TOFCJ-3-1.pdf

To produce hydrogen from seawater as a target product, an electrolysis production procedure can take three main routes:
a) Electrolysis to give hydrogen, oxygen and alkalis;
b) Electrolysis to give hydrogen, oxygen, chlorine and alkalis;
c) Electrolysis to give hydrogen and sodium hypochlorite (NaClO).

 

[Thales]

Ginger cures ich? Any spicific type and where can I get one of these wonderful gingers you speak of at?

Ginger does not cure ich.

 

[cb684]

Any gas, like O2, N2, or CO2, has an amount that dissolves into the water at equilibrium. Equilibrium means the amount that no more will dissolve no matter how long you wait.

The equilibrium amount that dissolves is approximately linearly related to the pressure of the gas above (or in contact with) the water. It also depends on temperature and salinity. higher temps means less dissolves. Lower salinity means more dissolves (at least for N2, O2).

So supersaturation means more is dissolved than is stable at equilibrium, and if you just wait, it will come out, either by bubbling off, or just coming off at the surface. Hopefully it does not come out inside of a fish, which is the concern above.

So if you start with cold seawater and saturate it with air, then raise the temp, it becomes supersaturated until some of the gas comes out somehow. Same could happen many other ways, such as by bubbling, photosynthesis making O2, etc.

Make sense?

Yes it does. Thanks

 

[malira]

I just wish there was scientific proof as to WHY it works. So far we know it increases gas exchange. I see improvement in my corals when I "bubble" firsthand. The big question for me is not IF it works, but HOW it works. I have a hypothesis, or a hunch rather. It could be possible that the (in my case) massive amount of bubbles is increasing the protein skimming of the tank. The bubbles are picking up matter when they make contact with objects and taking them to the surface. (In my system) once at the surface, get surface skimmed by the overflow box, into the sump, then removed by the skimmer. My skimmate has been darker and more of it while injecting air directly into the water column. I'm not posting this so everyone can "jump on the bandwagon" so to speak, or discredit or belittle others. I am here to converse peacefully and to possibly pinpoint why it works (or why it works for me). Any and all constructive input is appreciated. When new ways of doing things are brought to light there is always skepticism. Could it be that some other mechanism of action happened to improve the look of my tank? Sure. Could be coincidence, But until we have proof or disproof of what is changing we know nothing.

What are you using as your bubbler?

 

[CoralNerd]

I don't know but I'm getting my bubbles on tonight [emoji481] [emoji482]

 

[Jizu Puentes]

I'll admit I am probably one of the least open-minded when it comes to new techniques in this hobby but I will add my opinion too:

In my sump large amounts of the walls are covered with tube worms (larger soft shell ones, not the annoying white/hard ones) and also a rather large variety of small sponges. The reason I'm mentioning that in this post is due to the fact the sump walls around the skimmer outlet and the drain running into the sump, which spray air when the return pump is turned off/on, are totally bare of these tubeworms and sponges due to them being killed off by the microbubbles. Not sure if anyone has considered the effects this technique has on sponges etc. that are good for biological filtration...

The tubeworms:



There is a few large-microbubbles on some of the tubeworms from when I turned my return pump off and the odd bubble has made it's way across the sump. Note how the ones in contact with the bubbles are closed/irritated.

Sponges:

Multiple types of different colours; pink, white, a few types of yellow sponge (the pink is sponge not coralline)
And now for the area which is affected by microbubbles emerging from the skimmer outlet:

As you can see there is significantly less life around the skimmer outlet (a few small vermatids, a bunch of annoying hard-shelled tubeworms, one or two pineapple sponges and an aiptasia or two) and absolutely nothing directly where the outlet faces (the patterns are sponges on the other side of the glass, for comparison and the yellow sponge underneath would not be affected too much by the rising bubbles.
I'll admit I have only read a bit of the above post but thought I would bring up this point if it hasn't been brought up yet. I personally wouldn't use this method due to the effects it would have on important biological organisms that are irritated by microbubles. This is just my personal view, I'm a fan of the small sponges/tubeworms as theyr'e good for filtration, no need to hate.
:)

I wondered about the effects on sponge life as well as clams and that is why I have yet to try it. So far I have only heard from one person that has tried it with clams and she also has ball sponges.

 

[Squamosa]

Just to reinforce what Randy has said...

Randy is talking about Henry’s Law, which states 'At a constant temperature, the amount of a given gas that dissolves in a given type and volume of liquid is directly proportional to the partial pressure of that gas in equilibrium with that liquid', so therefore, the dissolved oxygen content of water is proportional to the percent of oxygen (partial pressure) in the air above it.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Ph...ions/Dissolving_Gases_In_Liquids,_Henry's_Law
So at sea level (1 atm) the amount of dissolved oxygen (DO) at 100% saturation at 20° C is 9.03 mg/L

Several factors can affect the water staying at 100% saturation:
As Randy pointed out, oxygen solubility decreases as water temperature rises, so rapid changes in temperature can create DO levels lower or greater than 100%.

Supersaturation can also be caused by rapid aeration, this can be seen in water flowing from large waterfalls or beside hydro-power dams.
Water flowing over a waterfall or dam traps and carries air with it, which is then plunged into the water. At greater depths, as in the oceans where the hydrostatic pressures are much larger, entrained air is forced into solution and potentially the saturation levels rise over 100%.
Kester, D.R. and Pytkowicz, R.M., 1968. Oxygen saturation in the surface waters of the Northeast Pacific Ocean. Journal of Geophysical Research,73(16), pp.5421-5424.

This has very broad implications for the health of out fish life, whether we farm fish in aquaculture or for fish life in general in the oceans...http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...ife-climate-change-acidification-oxygen-fish/

The next step for me would be to try and get some DO measurements done in my tank as the references to gas bubble disease are a cause for concern. I would like to see the DO level readings in the tank and if they go over 100% (which the should, based on data from the public aquarium that was provided in an earlier thread), for how long?

 

[Squamosa]

diffuser or airstone

Lee's limewood in the USA, I believe.

I can't get those here so I use hardwood blocks made up by myself, tested, they work as well I think :

 

[malira]

Thank you. They're pretty cheep here.

 

[Squamosa]

A rough and ready (but still very effective) version :)