Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[blusop]

Because i didn't remember the exact city it was in off the top of my head...and i don't want to give false information. ..so when i get home I'll get it for you...and ONCE AGAIN...i posted that write up because i SAW your comment concerning the BENEFITS of it on livestock. ..IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR TOPIC OF CONVERSATION. ..i was just throwing it out there...

 

[blusop]

Because i didn't remember the exact city it was in off the top of my head...and i don't want to give false information. ..so when i get home I'll get it for you...and ONCE AGAIN...i posted that write up because i SAW your comment concerning the BENEFITS of it on livestock. ..IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR TOPIC OF CONVERSATION. ..i was just throwing it out there...

As you see I'm not home I'm at church

 

[Thales]

Well, again, I'm confused on your statement. Can you explain how it is different? Not trying to argue, I'd just like to understand it. :)

Surge can be any kind of powerful movement. So at the surface a surge from waves have the water moving as well as the turbulence from the breaking of the surface tension. Lower down, you can get the water movement, but you don't have the surface tension being broken. Surge is a catch all term so without defining it, conversations can get a little messy. :D

As far as the video I posted, it goes back to my prior post where I stated that over the years I have observed successful surge systems, which is essentially creating the same effect as what you see at the end of the video. Whether you call it surge, flow, waves, increased water movement, it is pulling in fresh oxygen and saturating the water, creating random size bubbles and everything on that particular reef is thriving. I assume, which may not be the appropriate thing to do on this thread, is the folks that are attempting to incorporate this "micro-bubble scrubbing" are trying to replicate what is shown in the video.

There are two things here. Most of the surge tanks are using the method for water movement. The increased gas exchange is a benefit, but not the main goal - a supporting benefit. In the video, I don't see any gas exchange potential because the surface is up above. I can't tell if the video was snorkeling or diving, but the distance to the surface obviously impacts my last statement. From what I have read about bubbling, it doesn't seem that water motion is a goal.

Sure, more homework, testing, etc. needs to be done, especially how it affects certain animals, such as acro, or acans or sponges or even fish. Someone posted earlier that they are trying it for 10 minutes per hour, which is more in line with the surge systems I have observed over the years, so maybe tweaks to how it is set up will produce better or possibly even worse results. Only time will tell.

Does that make sense?

 

[Triggerjay]

http://www.dailynewsx.com/news/technology-news/air-bubbles-may-help-protect-coral-reefs-71141.html

 

[Triggerjay]

I was doing this with great results. It's offline right now due to a tank move, but I plan to continue this technique. I have not seen any ill results from doing it.

 

[Reeflogic]

Does that make sense?

No, it's a top secret encrypted message, you would need to decode it first. I would explain it to you, but you would probably still be confused. Have a good one.

 

[reef_ranch]

Guys, Richard (Thales) is pretty much a reefing pioneer, a good guy, who has done more for the hobby and the science of reef keeping than any of us ever will (except you Randy!!). Your negative reactions to his comments are unfounded. He's a scientist -- the good ones are skeptics. He's asking legit questions to try to determine what if any benefits there are to the technique. I'm interested myself and would rather have his input than not. He is clearly a man of great patience, but I suspect that eventually he will bow out rather than have to explain his intentions time and time again. That would be a loss.

For those who have experienced positive changes since the start of the bubbles, would you be willing to stop the bubbles for a couple of weeks and report back? That would give a bit more evidence to consider.

 

[Triggerjay]

For those who have experienced positive changes since the start of the bubbles, would you be willing to stop the bubbles for a couple of weeks and report back? That would give a bit more evidence to consider.

My air system is currently offline and has been for two weeks. I am not seeing the PE on my corals I was seeing while running it, but I also broke my tank and had to move all livestock to another tank two weeks ago. I cannot say that the decreased PE is from not running air as it could be from the tank switch.

 

[Thales]

Guys, Richard (Thales) is pretty much a reefing pioneer, a good guy, who has done more for the hobby and the science of reef keeping than any of us ever will (except you Randy!!). Your negative reactions to his comments are unfounded. He's a scientist -- the good ones are skeptics. He's asking legit questions to try to determine what if any benefits there are to the technique. I'm interested myself and would rather have his input than not. He is clearly a man of great patience, but I suspect that eventually he will bow out rather than have to explain his intentions time and time again. That would be a loss.

For those who have experienced positive changes since the start of the bubbles, would you be willing to stop the bubbles for a couple of weeks and report back? That would give a bit more evidence to consider.

Thanks.
My experience in the other related thread crushes my hope for a real conversation. Though I am still interested in what public aquariums have been bubbling for years (but suspect that this information won't surface). :D

 

[Triggerjay]

I just wish there was scientific proof as to WHY it works. So far we know it increases gas exchange. I see improvement in my corals when I "bubble" firsthand. The big question for me is not IF it works, but HOW it works. I have a hypothesis, or a hunch rather. It could be possible that the (in my case) massive amount of bubbles is increasing the protein skimming of the tank. The bubbles are picking up matter when they make contact with objects and taking them to the surface. (In my system) once at the surface, get surface skimmed by the overflow box, into the sump, then removed by the skimmer. My skimmate has been darker and more of it while injecting air directly into the water column. I'm not posting this so everyone can "jump on the bandwagon" so to speak, or discredit or belittle others. I am here to converse peacefully and to possibly pinpoint why it works (or why it works for me). Any and all constructive input is appreciated. When new ways of doing things are brought to light there is always skepticism. Could it be that some other mechanism of action happened to improve the look of my tank? Sure. Could be coincidence, But until we have proof or disproof of what is changing we know nothing.

 

[Thales]

Yes, for those claims we are on the same page. You are making the tank into a giant skimmer. You can get similar export when you 'storm' the tank. The question is, is it needed. I don't know.

 

[The Macro Guy]

I just wish there was scientific proof as to WHY it works. So far we know it increases gas exchange. I see improvement in my corals when I "bubble" firsthand. The big question for me is not IF it works, but HOW it works. I have a hypothesis, or a hunch rather. It could be possible that the (in my case) massive amount of bubbles is increasing the protein skimming of the tank. The bubbles are picking up matter when they make contact with objects and taking them to the surface. (In my system) once at the surface, get surface skimmed by the overflow box, into the sump, then removed by the skimmer. My skimmate has been darker and more of it while injecting air directly into the water column. I'm not posting this so everyone can "jump on the bandwagon" so to speak, or discredit or belittle others. I am here to converse peacefully and to possibly pinpoint why it works (or why it works for me). Any and all constructive input is appreciated. When new ways of doing things are brought to light there is always skepticism. Could it be that some other mechanism of action happened to improve the look of my tank? Sure. Could be coincidence, But until we have proof or disproof of what is changing we know nothing.

I believe microscrubbing removes the large particles that sps and corals can't use and makes more room for the particles be it plankton or fish poo that sps do use, it is also removing the large particles that would normally get stuck on sps surface, allowing them to "stretch their legs out" a little more than usual. You have to figure for every 1 bubble, that's 1 large particle or cluster of medium particles being removed from the water column.

Now will I go through the trouble and the thousands of dollars in research and testing needed to prove this? heck no, I'm still at a you can either try this or keep complaining about it stand point for people wanting "proof" or those wanting to actually argue this still lol, but you're only doing yourself an injustice by at least not giving this a shot for a week and then reporting back.

 

[Thales]

Oh my.

 

[Reeflogic]

A person can be the most brilliant individual in the room, or in this case, a forum thread; however, if said person has no people skills and only talks down to others, as opposed to talking to them, people get bent. I've already written off the previous 2 pages of this thread as someone who lacks forum etiquette, which is quite common. Do I respect Richards opinion? Of course! Just try and relay your messages better, proofread so people don't take what you are saying the wrong way. I for one am interested in what you have to say, just not so much in how you say it...

If you do not want to get your hopes crushed for "real conversation" then try a different approach to communicating with people. You have been a little rude in several of your posts and you have yet to include one single shred of scientific proof that this is detrimental to a reef aquarium. I'm just a hobbyist, not a scientist, so I'm just as interested as you are in determining if this works, why it works or how it works. So bring some positive energy to the conversation and I'm sure we can all get along. Sincerely.

 

[Thales]

A person can be the most brilliant individual in the room, or in this case, a forum thread; however, if said person has no people skills and only talks down to others, as opposed to talking to them, people get bent.

Why does this only seem to apply to me?

I've already written off the previous 2 pages of this thread as someone who lacks forum etiquette, which is quite common. Do I respect Richards opinion? Of course! Just try and relay your messages better, proofread so people don't take what you are saying the wrong way. I for one am interested in what you have to say, just not so much in how you say it...

I really don't know what to tell you. I spent time replying to you because you asked me too, then you blew me off, which was weird and I didn't really understand it. What did I not proofread (I would like to know because I actually work pretty hard when I post).

If you do not want to get your hopes crushed for "real conversation" then try a different approach to communicating with people.

I have tried several different approaches.

You have been a little rude in several of your posts

You bet - in response to rudeness. Sometimes that works to get people to have a conversation, sometimes it doesn't. How come I am the only one that this criticism seems to apply to?

and you have yet to include one single shred of scientific proof that this is detrimental to a reef aquarium.

This is the oddest point - I have never claimed this is detrimental. Why would I provide evidence to something I don't claim? Why would you expect me to? Even more importantly, why do you think I think it is detrimental?

And I still really want to know what public aquariums have been bubbling for years. :D

 

[Reeflogic]

I never blew you off, I just didn't like the way you came across. But like I said, it's text on a screen, you probably didn't have any ill intent, it's just how it comes across to the reader. For me anyways, and possibly others. We've gotten away from the original message of the thread and I apologize for that. No disrespect, Richard, I'm sure it was quick assumption on my part. Let's get back to learning more on the micro-bubbles. ;)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So far we know it increases gas exchange. .

Do we know that? How? In some specific tank?

 

[stunted]

Do we know that? How? In some specific tank?

I have been bubble scrubbing at night. My DO would go from around 76% to around 96% while bubble scrubbing.

 

[reef_ranch]

My air system is currently offline and has been for two weeks. I am not seeing the PE on my corals I was seeing while running it, but I also broke my tank and had to move all livestock to another tank two weeks ago. I cannot say that the decreased PE is from not running air as it could be from the tank switch.

Yeah, the tank change prevents any conclusions being drawn from the stopping of the bubbling. To draw any preliminary conclusions, the only change would have to be stopping the bubbles.

I'll add my experience for what its worth, while admitting its not worth much. I tried it for a week on my mixed reef. That was 2 weeks ago. The first night the SPS slimed up a bit and my leather coral retracted (first time in 6 months). The SPS did not slime up after that and the leather coral stayed retracted for the entire week and until 3 days after I stopped with the bubbles. I noticed no increased P.E., my sand did not get any cleaner and diatoms and algae accumulated on the tank glass at the same rate as before. The only negative appears to be the leather coral reaction, but that may have been coincidental. I doubt it, but that one event certainly proves nothing.

A week might be too short a period of time for me to notice any changes, but I didn't want to risk killing my leather coral and my tank is doing so well I don't want to mess with a good thing by injecting a new variable. I would love to see the results of a side by side comparison or, absent that, hear from you guys with good results what happens when you stop with the treatment for a period of time while otherwise maintaining the same husbandry techniques.

 

[Reeflogic]

Interesting on the leather coral, mine retracted the first night and was fine after that. Also, I didn't want to mention this because I wasn't sure if it was just coincidence, but I have several rainbow BTA's in my tank. I purchased one 2-3 years ago and it has multiplied to around 15 or so over that time frame. BUT, none of the clones have split in the last 8 months since I moved the system. Within 36 hours of running micro-bubbles, 3 of the larger clones split... Obviously, I have no way of confirming that the bubbles had anything to do with it, it was just weird that it occurred shortly after I started doing it. Also, some of the clones rarely bubbled up anymore but after I started the micro-bubbles, almost all of them are bubbled now. I'm a little over a week into it and still haven't seen any negative effects, so I will keep it online for now.