Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Ectogamut]

Here's a shot of my tank after 6 days of running nano-bubbles. The first 4 days I didn't see a big difference in my dino populations and I think that was because I hadn't positioned my air pump near a source of fresh air. The last two days the air pump has been next to an open window and I've noticed a noticeable drop in dinos throughout the tank. They're still not eliminated, but I've changed nothing else besides moving the air pump.

Below is a video of my tank bubbles, but I think that even at HD quality the video doesn't pick up the nano bubbles. But, as noted above, they do accumulate on detritus and other materiel in the tank and eventually bring it to the surface. I know this isn't long term and that the picture probably doesn't do it justice, but the water is quite clear.

 

[The Macro Guy]

1 question more

If we can produce nanobubbles with a cheap wooden air stone - why does we not produce any nanobubbles in our skimmers? The nanobubbles should - if they were produced in the skimmer - been transpoeted out to the DT because they can stand in the water for weeks.

I´m not saying that the bubble scrubbing method not work - because I have not try the method but i doubt that there is nanobubbles involved in the action.

Sincerely Lasse

This is entirely possible that our skimmers do produce some form of nano bubble that makes its way into the DT, but it would have to be in such a small amount. But most of it I would think is contained within the skimmer cone itself.

Until now I have lived convinced that the needle wheel and mesh wheels was developed to provide as small bubbles as possible. This is because small bubbles provide increased foaming
Apparently I was wrong in this because you claim that a wooden air stone and a normal impeller to a return pump provides finer bubbles.

So maybe - the best skimmer construction is to make a box with inlet and outlet. That box should contain a wooden air stone inside. Outlet of the box connected to the skimmer pump, which have a normal impeller. The skimmer pump sucks through the box outlet and get a lot of small bubbles up to the skimmer.

If you are right - we will get the best skimmer ever - and a continuous stream of nanobubbles into the DT as a side effect!

Or do I go in the wrong direction again?

Sincerely Lasse

That's how early skimmers were setup but with 1 airstone and box style skimmers. The bigger bubbles are needed to actually move material up higher and into the cup. I think small micro bubbles produced at the rate the skimmer currently produces bubbles would just pulverize the organics and they would just keep mixing in your skimmer until they eventually just get pushed back into your DT.

I started experimenting a couple weeks ago with just having the wooden airstone in my skimmer behind the pump so that both bubbles are produced. I'm hooking up another airstone this weekend to double the production of micro and an Nano bubbles. I'll let you know how it goes. If I get an even darker skimmate if even possible, I may run it like this for a month and see how everything does.

I'm also now debating if having the wooden airstone before the return pump is ideal, when they are forced around bends and throw tiny nozzles there has to be some loss of nano bubble production. Which is why I believe I lost nearly all my micro bubble production when running a reducer for my 3/4 to 1/2 and small output. I will see if there's any tutorials on running airlines inside of your plumbing. If so I will put one immediately after the return pump and post some results.

 

[Thales]

Sorry if I missed it - do you have a pic and a video of before you started?

Here's a shot of my tank after 6 days of running nano-bubbles. The first 4 days I didn't see a big difference in my dino populations and I think that was because I hadn't positioned my air pump near a source of fresh air. The last two days the air pump has been next to an open window and I've noticed a noticeable drop in dinos throughout the tank. They're still not eliminated, but I've changed nothing else besides moving the air pump.

Below is a video of my tank bubbles, but I think that even at HD quality the video doesn't pick up the nano bubbles. But, as noted above, they do accumulate on detritus and other materiel in the tank and eventually bring it to the surface. I know this isn't long term and that the picture probably doesn't do it justice, but the water is quite clear.

 

[Ectogamut]

Sorry if I missed it - do you have a pic and a video of before you started?

I do, but I don't think it's a very objective photo because I began this method shortly after (11 days I think) I did a 3-day blackout combined with raising my pH to 8.4 and dosing 1ml/10 gallons H2O2 to try and obliterate my dino issue....to no avail. So I don't believe that a photo could show the differences I see with my eye. I'm sure you can relate though. If I were to make a comparison, it would be similar to having nice acceptable water clarity from using good activated carbon, but then seeing the water somehow get even clearer, if that makes sense. For me (and I know this is all anecdotal), I see more depth to the tank.

Below is a video from February 14. But as you will probably see, the tank was a bit different then. I didn't have a sump and so the airstones were located directly under my MP10s. On the sandbed are large cyano mats. Even though I wasn't properly implementing the Cruz method, I still generated enough micro/nano bubbles to lift a lot of those mats on the sand up to the surface where I was able to snatch them out of the water. The picture below the video was taken 4 days after the video, and while it still looks rather terrible in there, you should be able to see that there was a reduction in cyano.

 

[Squamosa]

that meshwheel pumps cannot produce as small of a bubble

I think I mentioned this somewhere in the thread, If I didn't, here it is again.

We placed a wooden airstone in the inlet of a Sicce PSK 600 needle wheel pump and turned it on in the sump.

We saw a large amount of bubbles, but to our eyes we just created another skimmer, minus the acrylic. Bubbles were popping everywhere, we had splash and in the future probably would've seen massive salt creep ( this could have been contained as the sump is outside and could possible be covered e.t.c).

The sump rapidly filled up with bubbles and some where sucked into the inlet pump, but when we looked into the DT, the amount of bubbles we saw entering the tank did not match our expectations.

We saw more bubbles just using the wooden block placed close to the return inlet.

However, turning your whole sump into a kind of skimmer wouldn't necessarily a bad thing IMO.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Is this done under pressure?

Sincerely lasse

No, just osmotic degassification...

 

[Lasse]

I still doubt that any of our systems of mixing air and water producing nanobubbles of any significance amount. Neither in the skimmer or with help of wooden airstones. If there is evidences that the bubble scrubbing method works against dinos and cyano , I am convinced that we must look for the explanation along another path.

The day that someone is able to really demonstrate, not only claim, existing nanobubbles in a normal aquarium I will maybe change my mind.

The effect of better degaussing, debris removal and other things can be explained with normal aquatic husbandry - without the “witchcraft” of nanobubbles.

If we should produce nanobubbles for our aquarium – I´m convinced that we must use methods that put us on the eve of destruction in form of bubble disease. I can´t forget a sentence in the japanese paper there they say that if they do not aerate the water containing nanobubbles and a combination of freshwater and saltwater fishes – the fishes will die. IMO – they need to take away excess nitrogen gas through gas exchange.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

That's how early skimmers were setup but with 1 airstone and box style skimmers. The bigger bubbles are needed to actually move material up higher and into the cup. I think small micro bubbles produced at the rate the skimmer currently produces bubbles would just pulverize the organics and they would just keep mixing in your skimmer until they eventually just get pushed back into your DT.

Look at my age in the profile - I have been with for a rather long time. (and at the photo)

The first skimmers was operated with only wooden airstones - the Berlin modell. A development of that modell was when the contra current skimmer was introduced. A contra current skimmer works rather alike the EC method. Of some reason - this types of skimmers has a very low reputation today.

I'm also now debating if having the wooden airstone before the return pump is ideal, when they are forced around bends and throw tiny nozzles there has to be some loss of nano bubble production. Which is why I believe I lost nearly all my micro bubble production when running a reducer for my 3/4 to 1/2 and small output. I will see if there's any tutorials on running airlines inside of your plumbing. If so I will put one immediately after the return pump and post some results.

IMO it could in reality be the opposite. With the reduction - you rise the pressure - higher pressure - more likely thinner bubbles – but because of it is air – more risk of bubble disease. Remember – you can´t see nanobubbles

I started experimenting a couple weeks ago with just having the wooden airstone in my skimmer behind the pump so that both bubbles are produced. I'm hooking up another airstone this weekend to double the production of micro and an Nano bubbles. I'll let you know how it goes. If I get an even darker skimmate if even possible, I may run it like this for a month and see how everything does.

Would like that

Sincerely lasse

 

[The Macro Guy]

Look at my age in the profile - I have been with for a rather long time. (and at the photo)

The first skimmers was operated with only wooden airstones - the Berlin modell. A development of that modell was when the contra current skimmer was introduced. A contra current skimmer works rather alike the EC method. Of some reason - this types of skimmers has a very low reputation today.



IMO it could in reality be the opposite. With the reduction - you rise the pressure - higher pressure - more likely thinner bubbles – but because of it is air – more risk of bubble disease. Remember – you can´t see nanobubbles



Would like that

Sincerely lasse

My apologies, I know you're a pioneer when it comes to reefing, thats why I wasn't sure when you said to use the wooden airstones as bubble production for a skimmer, because from some older pics I've seen, that's how people ran them, and there are some systems now that use it, they look really basic though, but I don't know how good they actually are.

 

[Squamosa]

I can´t forget a sentence in the japanese paper there they say that if they do not aerate the water containing nanobubbles and a combination of freshwater and saltwater fishes

Mmm, I wonder how they aerated the water since you don't put a reference in?

In research I've read, scientists achieved their high O2 saturation rates (>120%) from injecting O2 under pressure and showed that even at 140% saturation, fish grew larger than in the controls!
http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/document/yovita07prf.pdf

I´m convinced that we must use methods that put us on the eve of destruction in form of bubble disease.

This statement may indeed be proven true, we shall soon see, as there is a member on my thread who has purchased a Japanese nanobubble generator and will run it at ~6 bar of pressure. They are about to commence testing in a frag tank with some fish, I believe.
I have cautioned them against this, but they will go ahead and run their little experiment!

“witchcraft”

I was wondering when you would show your true colours!
I now believe we don't have anything to say to each other anymore

 

[Lasse]

I was wondering when you would show your true colours!
I now believe we don't have anything to say to each other anymore

I hope you notice the " " around the word witchcraft. I do not know if it means something different in English but if you use this " " around a word here in Sweden - it means that you should take the word with a lot of humour

So I hope we have more to say eachother. My true colour? - not even I know

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Mmm, I wonder how they aerated the water since you don't put a reference in?

I´ll try to find the rerefernce later on

In research I've read, scientists achieved their high O2 saturation rates (>120%) from injecting O2 under pressure and showed that even at 140% saturation, fish grew larger than in the controls!

This is a total different thing - they use (and I have used) pure oxygen - not air with a 80 % content of nitrogen gas

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This statement may indeed be proven true, we shall soon see, as there is a member on my thread who has purchased a Japanese nanobubble generator and will run it at ~6 bar of pressure. They are about to commence testing in a frag tank with some fish, I believe.
I have cautioned them against this, but they will go ahead and run their little experiment!

Intresting. Maybe it depends how the application will be done. If they generate the bubble before a preasure pipe of 6 bar - I´m rather sure what the outcome will be - but if they generate the bubbles directly after the preasure pipe (like a diffusor) - I´m not so sure. Report back

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Here is the link: http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j...n.docx&usg=AFQjCNEf78xBxQv6VEVv5CdiY1XIiT4W-g

The text is as follow

It is possible to breed koi carp and sea bream together for several months in the same water tank containing 1% salt with oxygen nanobubbles (Fig.14). Neither fish could survive without the nanobubbles, even though the salt concentration of 1% is almost equal to the electrolyte concentration of their body fluid. In general, red sea bream is vulnerable to changes in salt concentration, and koi carp also has difficulty in surviving in water containing 1% salt. Goldfish, however, are not vulnerable to changes in salt concentration.



"The fish in this tank would die from oxygen deficiency if we stopped regularly bubbling air through the water. This suggested to us that oxygen nanobubbles act not directly on respiratory and metabolic systems but through a different mechanism. We then tried to elucidate the mechanism with support from biological and medical researchers, and released, jointly with REO Research Institute, a report on the experiment of the water tank with nanobubbles to the press, aiming to promote the applications and development of nanobubbles[8]. We received many inquiries from researchers in various fields including medicine. We replied to them by providing a sample of water to use freely. Most of them failed to obtain significant results from the sample, but some obtained excellent achievements by appropriately applying the sample to a specific purpose at their site," said Dr. Takahashi. He also introduced the following examples to us.

My bold text

And I´m sorry - it seems that it maybe has not to do with bubble disease because they use oxygen nanobubbles not air nanobubbles - but they state this

This suggested to us that oxygen nanobubbles act not directly on respiratory and metabolic systems but through a different mechanism.

So nanobubbles has probably nothing to do with the breathing of fishes - they probably do not give higer oxygen concentration for the fish to use

Sincerely Lasse

 

[stevieduk]

So Elegant corals likes to push this idea. im not so sure about it. its got obvious positive affects (the reason we use airstones in micro tanks) but when we do it in small tanks its not designed to fill the tank with micro bubbles like this would. they talk about running them through the return which would flood your display with Micro bubbles. these are the effects they say it has on your tank.

Allows the corals to release excess slime and waste...
Allows the coral membrane to breathe and allow for better osmosis and ion exchange with the water column...
Oxygenates the water and de-gasses excess CO2 in the water column out of the system. (Skimmers and a little ball of chaeto is not sufficient... sorry...)
We recommend 8 to 10 hours a day counter cycle to the display tank lighting to maintain a more consistent and stable pH level.
The correct pH greatly improves the calcification rates of all hard corals...
Oxygenation also assists in higher beneficial aerobic bacterial loads as well as decrease the bad anaerobic cyanobacteria that many hobbyists struggle with.
The micro bubbles also get under (with proper tank flow) dinos and the cyanobacteria and carry them to the over flow to be removed by an efficient skimmer.
If fighting dinos, cyanobacteria, or other Reef Tank Pests

Wouldn't the micro bubbles also build up in the rock areas preventing good bacteria? wouldn't they also irritate the corals as they got stuck under them, specifically with plating corals like a monti cap? wouldn't they also irritate the fish as they get in their gills?

Lets discuss this.

So Elegant corals likes to push this idea. im not so sure about it. its got obvious positive affects (the reason we use airstones in micro tanks) but when we do it in small tanks its not designed to fill the tank with micro bubbles like this would. they talk about running them through the return which would flood your display with Micro bubbles. these are the effects they say it has on your tank.

Allows the corals to release excess slime and waste...
Allows the coral membrane to breathe and allow for better osmosis and ion exchange with the water column...
Oxygenates the water and de-gasses excess CO2 in the water column out of the system. (Skimmers and a little ball of chaeto is not sufficient... sorry...)
We recommend 8 to 10 hours a day counter cycle to the display tank lighting to maintain a more consistent and stable pH level.
The correct pH greatly improves the calcification rates of all hard corals...
Oxygenation also assists in higher beneficial aerobic bacterial loads as well as decrease the bad anaerobic cyanobacteria that many hobbyists struggle with.
The micro bubbles also get under (with proper tank flow) dinos and the cyanobacteria and carry them to the over flow to be removed by an efficient skimmer.
If fighting dinos, cyanobacteria, or other Reef Tank Pests

Wouldn't the micro bubbles also build up in the rock areas preventing good bacteria? wouldn't they also irritate the corals as they got stuck under them, specifically with plating corals like a monti cap? wouldn't they also irritate the fish as they get in their gills?

Lets discuss this.

well it makes sense if you think about it cos most corals grow well were the waves crash onto a reef with loads of bubbles there

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any of you folks using bubbles look at them in a microscope to see what you can see? I know you cannot see the sort of nanobubbles that some of these special properties are reported for, but perhaps those very small ones are neither present nor necessary for the effects you see (as others have noted).

 

[Ectogamut]

Any of you folks using bubbles look at them in a microscope to see what you can see? I know you cannot see the sort of nanobubbles that some of these special properties are reported for, but perhaps those very small ones are neither present nor necessary for the effects you see (as others have noted).

I have a microscope here. Let me see if anything turns up. It's not high powered by any means though.

 

[Jonty]

I have been running a wooden airstone for three hours a night by the intake of my return pump and feel I have seen increased coral growth and general tank improvement . I do see that my O2 sensor shows a significant increase in O2 levels during this time at night which may be a major factor in the effectiveness of the system. My O2 runs normal from 96- 105% without bubbles and 103-105% with . This is even with running a extremely oversized skimmer for my 300 Gal tank.

 

[Lasse]

pH and it´s varations - do you have that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I too am very interested in pH tracking before and after. Folks should keep in mind that if the home air used to make the bubbles has elevated CO2 (as home air often does), the pH may drop (or stay steady but low), especially during the day when the tank may run at a CO2 deficit relative to the air used. The same is true for any aeration method used (like a skimmer). That is why some folks using bubbling or skimmers use outside air.