Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[TrPPnN]

Any ways, I bubble. It has worked for me. Cut down my bubbling to about 2 hours a night.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Any ways, I bubble. It has worked for me. Cut down my bubbling to about 2 hours a night.

What benefits did you see?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kinda funny to see a bunch people try to gang up on one person trying to do something for others.

Well, I wouldn't be quite so hard on the bubble proponents as you seem to be. They have strongly held beliefs and perhaps it is somewhat understandable that they get defensive when some of their claims are challenged or disproven.

Or did you mean it the other way around???

 

[Waterjockey]

I am unable to try the tank bubble-scrub method and compare before and after numbers yet as I have too many changes going on right now to get a "baseline" to compare only the changes (if any) from bubble scrubs....it will likely be some months before I can start that....however, I did try an experiment where I put a wood airstone at my return pump inlet and dialed up the air to just short of the pump losing all suction (absolute maximum amount of air-entrainment via that method) and then documented the quantity of small bubbles in the tank. I then took the same wood airstone and put it in a corner of the tank just off the bottom. I put a very small powerhead above that, so the powerhead circulated the bubbles around the tank, starting near the bottom. As the airstone was just below the discharge of the powerhead I could dial the air flow right up to the maximum air pump output if I so desired. The amount of bubbles I was able to virtually saturate the tank with was significantly increased many - fold. If the gist of the idea is to turn your display tank into a big skimmer for a few hours each night, it would seem it would be far more effective to put the airstone in the tank and circulate it with a powerhead or similar, than at the return pump inlet. On a side note, I run a simple T5 lighting system about 5 inches about the tank surface. The couple of nights I ran the bubbles through my return pump, my lights were encrusted with a fine salt coating from the "mist" or "smoke" that danced arount the water surface, and it was a pain in the *** to clean the lights everyday. By releasing the air near the bottom of the tank and blowing the bubbles around starting much further down in the water column the amount of salt encrusting my lights was significantly less that when the bubbles exited through my spray bar (just below the surface). If/when I get to try it after I get my tank settled out, I will use the display tank airstone method. There is no way I am going to scrub my light hood every day

Cheers!

 

[gettaReef]

I am unable to try the tank bubble-scrub method and compare before and after numbers yet as I have too many changes going on right now to get a "baseline" to compare only the changes (if any) from bubble scrubs....it will likely be some months before I can start that....however, I did try an experiment where I put a wood airstone at my return pump inlet and dialed up the air to just short of the pump losing all suction (absolute maximum amount of air-entrainment via that method) and then documented the quantity of small bubbles in the tank. I then took the same wood airstone and put it in a corner of the tank just off the bottom. I put a very small powerhead above that, so the powerhead circulated the bubbles around the tank, starting near the bottom. As the airstone was just below the discharge of the powerhead I could dial the air flow right up to the maximum air pump output if I so desired. The amount of bubbles I was able to virtually saturate the tank with was significantly increased many - fold. If the gist of the idea is to turn your display tank into a big skimmer for a few hours each night, it would seem it would be far more effective to put the airstone in the tank and circulate it with a powerhead or similar, than at the return pump inlet. On a side note, I run a simple T5 lighting system about 5 inches about the tank surface. The couple of nights I ran the bubbles through my return pump, my lights were encrusted with a fine salt coating from the "mist" or "smoke" that danced arount the water surface, and it was a pain in the *** to clean the lights everyday. By releasing the air near the bottom of the tank and blowing the bubbles around starting much further down in the water column the amount of salt encrusting my lights was significantly less that when the bubbles exited through my spray bar (just below the surface). If/when I get to try it after I get my tank settled out, I will use the display tank airstone method. There is no way I am going to scrub my light hood every day

Cheers!

I'm just curious, what changes (positive and/or negative) did you see with using bubbles, and was there any difference in these changes from one method to another (airstone in sump vs airstone in display)? Also, what power of air pump (as in liter per minute) did you use or is recommended for those who want to give this method a go (I'm trying to see if there is such a thing as using too little an air pump or too powerful an air pump)? Thank you

 

[Waterjockey]

I'm just curious, what changes (positive and/or negative) did you see with using bubbles, and was there any difference in these changes from one method to another (airstone in sump vs airstone in display)? Also, what power of air pump (as in liter per minute) did you use or is recommended for those who want to give this method a go (I'm trying to see if there is such a thing as using too little an air pump or too powerful an air pump)? Thank you

Hi. I can't really tell you at this point if there were any changes between methods, or by using bubbles or not ..yet. I only tried it for a few nights in both methods (return pump inlet and in tank stone). The air pump I used was a spare Danner AP-3 I had kicking around...however, as I had to throttle the air significantly when the stone was under the return pump inlet (without throttling the return pump would sumply become air-bound and stop pumping water), I can't give you a quantifiable number as per liters/hour entrainnment via that method. I also throttled the air when the stone was in-tank to minimize the amount of larger bubbles produced from the wood diffuser. My tank is just a 30 gallon mixed reef with a 20 gallon sump....which was neglected for many months. I have finally just hit non-detectable Nitrates and Phosphates after several months of dosing vodka heavily, and am still trying to determine maintenance dose. I've also added ozone in the last two weeks, and just setting up a kalkwasser dosing system, so I have far, far, too many changes going on with the system right now to be able to attribute any positive or negative effects of "micro" bubbling the tank, let alone a difference between the two methods. I hope to be able to do a quantative, measurable, approach to this within a month or two. I would also need a par meter, and perhaps an air flow meter to be able to collect data. Right now all I monitor/trend is ph&orp via apex, and various dosings via spreadsheets. Once I get things settled out, I will run the system for a month or so without ozone injection or carbon dosing to get a short baseline trend of where the systems drifts to, then try a month of intank bubbling and a month of return pump bubbling to see if I can actually measure any results (par, ph swing, orp, skimmer output, etc). All I can say right now, is I can provide many times more very small (micro) bubbles circulating around the tank by injecting air deeper in the tank and with a small circulating pump than I can by injecting bubbles at my return pump intake.

Cheers!

 

[MaccaPopEye]

@The Macro Guy, I may have missed it (completely possible in this thread), and if I did can you please post them again but I have not yet seen any graphs clearly showing both before AND after with PH & ORP (and showing the time when bubbling was started). I have seen some graphs that only show after but unfortunately that doesn't help.

@Cruz_Arias, It has also been claimed multiple times that PAR has been increased by using bubbling. As far as I am aware the only accurate way to measure PAR is with a PAR meter, so to make those claims someone MUST have the PAR data from before and after, can this please be posted too? (Knowing if the tank the data was taken from was running carbon or something else that has already been proven to increase PAR would be useful too)

What would really make this method credible is if this data was all taken from the one tank, before and after, clearly showing the point when bubbling was started and was posed clearly in one post. I find it a little hard to believe that if PAR measurements were taken before and after (i.e. someone had enough forethought and a good feeling that what they were doing was going to have a positive effect) that PH and ORP wouldn't have been tracked as well.

I actually think if you presented the data being asked for, or at least what ever data you do have in a clear before and after format with just data and no opinions or observations that it would go a long way to having people believe you and I am quite sure that the "skeptics" (I would say I am one of them and that it isn't a bad thing) in this thread would say it is certainly a start to having this method more widely adopted. You have posted the ORP before and after so why not PH and PAR as well and anything else that can be accurately measured? Put it all together in one post. List what equipment the tank has, bio load, how long before bubbling the data was taken and how long after starting bubbling the second lot of data was taken. It seems you already have these numbers, even if you don't think it will convince everyone please post it as it could convince me and maybe some others too.

@The Macro Guy
@Cruz_Arias

Anyone? I really would like to see the data you have. @Squamosa I haven't read through your thread, do you know if any of this data is in there? If it has would you please be able to share a link to it or post it here?

Cheers,

Macca

 

[TrPPnN]

What benefits did you see?

Well, the little suspended particulates and what looked like amphipod shells, assuming they were in the crevices of the rock, were being floated out of the rock work, from behind and from all the nooks and crannies.
Just observation stuff. Nothing too scientific.

Water appeared to be clearer after a few days, like it was activated carbon scrubbed. How much cleaner? I don't really know.

The fish, tangs and blennies, SEEMED to be grazing on the rocks or something after a few days as well.

 

[TrPPnN]

@The Macro Guy
@Cruz_Arias

Anyone? I really would like to see the data you have. @Squamosa I haven't read through your thread, do you know if any of this data is in there? If it has would you please be able to share a link to it or post it here?

Cheers,

Macca

I think these guys were banned from posting lol funny.

So its a free for all to dissect everything they quoted and see if there is anything to quantify. Doubtful, but responses by Jedimasterben don't seem to help the scientific community out much. He seems to have a bad case of tourettes.

Right now all I have done was aerate sparingly during the night for a few hours. It hasn't hurt anything and I'm still reefing as per tried and true methods laid out by Randy and the rest of the pioneers.

 

[TrPPnN]

Well, I wouldn't be quite so hard on the bubble proponents as you seem to be. They have strongly held beliefs and perhaps it is somewhat understandable that they get defensive when some of their claims are challenged or disproven.

Or did you mean it the other way around???

I saw it on both sides actually. LOL grownups arguing over bubbles. Hahaha

 

[TrPPnN]

In regards to this method, yeah, the skimmer, for the first week pulled out a lot more skimmate than the prior week. Once again, not sure how much more, but definitely had to empty out the skimmate cup twice that week, rather than the regular emptying schedule of once every 3 weeks.

Reefing method stayed the same.

Alk 9.4dkh, calcium 420, magnesium 1330

Lighting remained the same, 14k 400w halides with XHO led bars @ 12 hours a day.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I think these guys were banned from posting lol funny.

Thanks, that would explain it. Would it have just been this thread or all threads? If just this one then I will post in the other thread and hopefully I can get a response

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well, the little suspended particulates and what looked like amphipod shells, assuming they were in the crevices of the rock, were being floated out of the rock work, from behind and from all the nooks and crannies.
Just observation stuff. Nothing too scientific.

Water appeared to be clearer after a few days, like it was activated carbon scrubbed. How much cleaner? I don't really know.

The fish, tangs and blennies, SEEMED to be grazing on the rocks or something after a few days as well.

Thanks.

 

[TrPPnN]

Thanks, that would explain it. Would it have just been this thread or all threads? If just this one then I will post in the other thread and hopefully I can get a response

Not sure. I think you could pm them.

 

[TrPPnN]

I am unable to try the tank bubble-scrub method and compare before and after numbers yet as I have too many changes going on right now to get a "baseline" to compare only the changes (if any) from bubble scrubs....it will likely be some months before I can start that....however, I did try an experiment where I put a wood airstone at my return pump inlet and dialed up the air to just short of the pump losing all suction (absolute maximum amount of air-entrainment via that method) and then documented the quantity of small bubbles in the tank. I then took the same wood airstone and put it in a corner of the tank just off the bottom. I put a very small powerhead above that, so the powerhead circulated the bubbles around the tank, starting near the bottom. As the airstone was just below the discharge of the powerhead I could dial the air flow right up to the maximum air pump output if I so desired. The amount of bubbles I was able to virtually saturate the tank with was significantly increased many - fold. If the gist of the idea is to turn your display tank into a big skimmer for a few hours each night, it would seem it would be far more effective to put the airstone in the tank and circulate it with a powerhead or similar, than at the return pump inlet. On a side note, I run a simple T5 lighting system about 5 inches about the tank surface. The couple of nights I ran the bubbles through my return pump, my lights were encrusted with a fine salt coating from the "mist" or "smoke" that danced arount the water surface, and it was a pain in the *** to clean the lights everyday. By releasing the air near the bottom of the tank and blowing the bubbles around starting much further down in the water column the amount of salt encrusting my lights was significantly less that when the bubbles exited through my spray bar (just below the surface). If/when I get to try it after I get my tank settled out, I will use the display tank airstone method. There is no way I am going to scrub my light hood every day

Cheers!

I don't get any of that popping on the surface of the DT.

I read somewhere in this post or the other that the "art" is to move the air diffuser further away from the intake of the return pump.

Try scooting it further away when you try it again.

 

[melypr1985]

@thatguyZach I think it's in here somewhere!

 

[Waterjockey]

Just curious,
Has anyone tried sticking a needlewheel skimmer pump in thier tank to compare results?

Cheers!

 

[Crixus]

I didn't read all 58 pages, but I've been bubbling since before I ever read it on here. It works for me. Tank is crystal clear, no detritus anywhere and I have seen "accelerated" coral growth.

 

[justin.k.nelson]

Just curious,
Has anyone tried sticking a needlewheel skimmer pump in thier tank to compare results?

Cheers!

I was thinking the same thing. The bubbles would be finer than the wood block, i would imagine.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I didn't read all 58 pages, but I've been bubbling since before I ever read it on here. It works for me. Tank is crystal clear, no detritus anywhere and I have seen "accelerated" coral growth.

Can you clarify what you mean by accelerated?
Did you have detritus issues before bubbling?