Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

, Randy may be against it, but at least he is approaching it with science.
.

To be clear, I am not against it at all. I am only against explanations that are not viable (that is, incorrect), or the acceptance of claims without some type of evidence.

 

[cb684]

@Cruz_Arias I guess it would be interesting to know what is the air pump how many lime wood bubblers people are using and how many gallons in the system.

 

[McMullen]

So there is Japanese data that demonstrates bubbling increases PAR or water clarity?! This is great! Could you post a link please? I would love to know more!

I have not been able to set this up in my tank but turning my display into a skimmer, so to speak, makes since. I actually have quite a bit of floating stuff that I would love to remove!

@Cruz_Arias, thank you for the definition of a "skeptic." It seems I am a walking contradiction! Though I want to believe all the wonderfully fantastic claims your lack of, well, anything resembling credible information is pause for concern!

For those who think this sarcasm, it is sincerity!

As a hobbiest I truly want at least some of these claims to be true and valid. If your gathering data you just had to say so.

 

[Lasse]

Yes, the biocube has a chamber in the back for bioball media. Most people seem to remove them and replace with a media rack, but I still have mine.

One question more - do you dose an organic carbons source?

I seek for an explanation of your nitrate measurements. 40 ppm nitrate does not disappear during a few days – no way.

However – most nitrate test are sensitive for nitrite and can show very high nitrate reading if there is even low concentrations of nitrite in the water. If your bio filter had a high organic load prior to the cleaning it could have taken down your nitrification rate and low amount of nitrite can have arisen. The cleaning put things in order again – nitrite level down to 0 and not disturbing your nitrate reading which show low concentrations again.


Sincerely Lasse

 

[edosan]

So bubbles do work or not? So confused! [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
For me it works perfect, love it and it will stay on my 260g setup for good [emoji106].
And in all my other tanks

Easy, try it !! is a very simple and cheap setup
If you like it, use it
If you dont like it, then do not use it

Can make harm? No in my opinion and experience.

I like it simple

 

[cb684]

So bubbles do work or not? So confused! [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
For me it works perfect, love it and it will stay on my 260g setup for good [emoji106].
And in all my other tanks

Easy, try it !! is a very simple and cheap setup
If you like it, use it
If you dont like it, then do not use it

Can make harm? No in my opinion and experience.

I like it simple

So, you are saying that if a fellow reefer with gorgonians, sponges (several types of each), and sea horses aquarium is wondering if it is a good idea to use this technique you would not hesitate and say:
"Easy, try it !! is a very simple and cheap setup
If you like it, use it
If you dont like it, then do not use it"

 

[edosan]

Jajaja of course not!

if you have that type of aquarium you should not care what others think
You probably have enough experience to decide what is good or not for your tank.

Your example might be the Exception that proves the rule?

 

[Lasse]

So bubbles do work or not? So confused!

For me it works perfect, love it and it will stay on my 260g setup for good

.
And in all my other tanks

Easy, try it !! is a very simple and cheap setup
If you like it, use it
If you dont like it, then do not use it

Can make harm? No in my opinion and experience.

I like it simple

Once again (or as we say in Sweden – for the fifty eleven time) No one who is skeptical about the method has say anything if it works or not.

Every tank is different – every aquarist has his/hers has its approach how their aquarium should look like. If you bubbling in this way – you basically turn your display tank to a skimmer. And of course it will do well in some tanks. Especially if the conditions for a good gas exchange is sub-optimal. The method may either increase or decrease current pH - depending on the level of carbon dioxide the surrounding air (or in the incoming air).

Will it transport out debris – yes in some tanks – in other – as an example - tanks with very good circulation – maybe not.

What I especially react to and does not understand it is all the claims about how it works. See post 1063 there Thales post a text from EC. The headline is Micro Scrubbing Nanobubbles ™. Note - the name of the method is trademarked!

In the text – there is a lot of claims – some more fantastic than the other. If all of this claims are true – we have a husbandry revolution in front of us according to reef maintains.

I personally is serious with my hobby and want to have the best thinkable conditions for the living things I put in a glass jar. I want to know base and facts for these claims and IMO – it’s the persons that have state these claims and explanations from the beginning who should discuss these in an open discussion.

I do not doubt for a moment on the positive results that some people had in their aquarium - nor those who have not had good results. It is not to these people I have divergent opinions to, because I know that all methods have different success in various aquariums

But statement like “The technology that create the micro bubble produces bubbles so small, 1-50 microns to be exact, that it´s able to penetrate pores that´s usually 90 microns in size and remove dead damaged coral membranes, excess sebum and mucus and bacteria, Talk about deep cleaning!” turns my stomach upside down and for me it looks like an ad for a new facial scrubber to people who want to look like teenagers even though they are 66 years old

And there is a lot of similar statements in that text

If I personally should by all of these claims – I need prove for them or at least that someone explain for me so I understand what I miss.

If someone report non or bad result – it’s not fair to say – you did it wrong – because the reason could also be that the method was not suitable for that aquarium

Thanks to the admin for putting up the thread again.

Finally IMO – it has been Thales that have been personally attacked – I have not seen any case there he has launched a personal attack to someone – if you do not takes questions and statement that disagree with some others as personal attacks or violating others right to have a belief in something.

If someone disagree or questions other person’s statements and this will be taken as insults or personal attacks – we certainly have some problems in the society.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[edosan]

Anyway it was a fun post to read. Man is just bubbles!

 

[Lasse]

Of course I am a bubble - as I understand - they are magical.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ScoobyFish]

I say it works. we are all scientists in one way or another, keeping our tanks. Why? well we all live in different parts of the world trying to imitate mother nature at its best, with humans trying their best to destroy it. People pollute the waters without a second though, yet we remind ourselves not to wash our hands with soap when approaching our precious reef tanks. But i digress , here we all are trying to keep a miniature copy of the reef systems throughout the world, in our homes, in our apartments, in our cities, in country settings. I live in a big city, pollution here is aaamazing! and i can see this affecting my tank, and i have to battle this everyday. There is no post somewhere, some guy telling me how to run my tank , in my apartment, and how many pollutants enter my tank and how to exactly run it. Yall getting my point? im trying to keep these things alive in the unique environment that is my apartment. So do i think these bubbles do something for my tank? yes i do, i had alot of algae growing on my glass, had diatoms (coulda been cyano) doubt it was dinos. This helped alot, scrubing bubbles, added o2 to water, whatever it helped. See in the ocean everyday it rains, lightning striking it here there, pollution coming from everywhere, planed crashing, ships sinking, water coming from rivers, from chemical companies from sewage treatment plants. Undersea earthquakes releasing gas underground, moving structures. We dont know squat about our oceans, we just know what we know. The ocean could have its own scrubing bubblies for all we know. All i know is, it helped me and ima use it.

 

[MaccaPopEye]

You,Jedi, and passive agressive greenman have contributed absolutely nothing but doubt to this thread, Randy may be against it, but at least he is approaching it with science.

IMO the posters you mentioned are in no way any more against it than Randy is, and from what I have seen they all actually want it to work and have been approaching it in a completely reasonable way and do want to talk about the science. They just wont accept outrageous claims with no proof. In fact hoping that their questions will get answered is what has kept me reading this thread.

The burden of proof is only on the person making the claims (this is how science works, if you tried to submit a paper for peer review with no data to back up claims, you'd be laughed out of academia), yet he (and many others) is continuing to tell others that the burden of proof is on them.

I really don't see how this isn't making sense to some people.

So what more data did you need?

PH graph, check
ORA data, check

@The Macro Guy, I may have missed it (completely possible in this thread), and if I did can you please post them again but I have not yet seen any graphs clearly showing both before AND after with PH & ORP (and showing the time when bubbling was started). I have seen some graphs that only show after but unfortunately that doesn't help.

@Cruz_Arias, It has also been claimed multiple times that PAR has been increased by using bubbling. As far as I am aware the only accurate way to measure PAR is with a PAR meter, so to make those claims someone MUST have the PAR data from before and after, can this please be posted too? (Knowing if the tank the data was taken from was running carbon or something else that has already been proven to increase PAR would be useful too)

What would really make this method credible is if this data was all taken from the one tank, before and after, clearly showing the point when bubbling was started and was posed clearly in one post. I find it a little hard to believe that if PAR measurements were taken before and after (i.e. someone had enough forethought and a good feeling that what they were doing was going to have a positive effect) that PH and ORP wouldn't have been tracked as well.

Run the reports yourself...
You wouldn't believe me anyways if I posted my results...

I actually think if you presented the data being asked for, or at least what ever data you do have in a clear before and after format with just data and no opinions or observations that it would go a long way to having people believe you and I am quite sure that the "skeptics" (I would say I am one of them and that it isn't a bad thing) in this thread would say it is certainly a start to having this method more widely adopted. You have posted the ORP before and after so why not PH and PAR as well and anything else that can be accurately measured? Put it all together in one post. List what equipment the tank has, bio load, how long before bubbling the data was taken and how long after starting bubbling the second lot of data was taken. It seems you already have these numbers, even if you don't think it will convince everyone please post it as it could convince me and maybe some others too.

Scientific method dictates that the "science part" is trying to disprove (bit by bit) that it does not work and that it is a placebo.

The burden is in the court of those attempting to debunk this method.

This really isn't the case at all. The claims being made in that Elegant Corals picture that keeps getting posted are very extreme. If claims like that are going to be made they must come with proof if they expect to be taken seriously.

You tell me? Everyone who has posted other than 1 persom who has tried his has had positive results. The one person who did do it and posted negative results did it wrong, even wih the detailed instructions given.

Actually I have seen a good few people in this thread who didn't experience any positive results and I have seen a lot more post on facebook and other forums (well over a dozen) that also say they did not experience any positive results. Were they doing it wrong? Maybe. But has everyone who has tried it had positive results? Certainly not.

People can claim personal attacks here and there all they want but I am yet to see any see any of the simple data being asked for, let alone anything that supports the more extravagant claims which IMO are the ones really making people skeptical. Had this method have started with just "Bubbling can increase PH, ORP, water clarity and polyp extension" the numbers could have easily been provided I would have been way more likely to try it.

Cheers,

Macca

 

[klp]

I am wondering about strong water flow as a necessity for some corals. If micro bubbles can produce initial sliming that tapers off as I have seen reported, I am wondering if that is stimulating the corals to getting rid of wastes that have built up. As there sliming was reported to disappear subsequently it might be an indication that with the wastes gone so is the sliming. If strong current is used to remove wastes in corals than strong current may no longer be needed if the micro bubbles do that function for the coral. It may be that a weaker current would suffice meaning there would not be as great a need for a very strong water flow. Instead of 10-20 water "changes" per hour maybe 5-10 etc. would be as effective. I understand current facilitates bringing nutrients, oxygen, eliminating wastes etc. but micro bubbles seems to aid in these as well. Has Elegant Corals or anyone done a study or had experience with reducing current when using micro bubbles?

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I am no longer watching this thread. I believe much disrespect has been shown by both sides and I do not have an advanced degree in science. I have two degrees one in applied science (associates degree) and some pre-med as well as a B.S. in business management. While I enjoy the hobby this thread has become counter productve. I will say as one that has been in the hobby and then the industry for 30 plus years in one form another there is very little science and more art applied to the hobby/industry. Observation is one of the gifts of human reason and has allowed us some level of success. Please continue to observe and report your observations about the art but do not confuse it with science where repetable results are required. I have many years in a laboratory environment to fall back on and would ask that each of us strive for those easy to repete successes in the hobby. Some days it will be more about art than science but if it brings success maybe we scratched the surface of science in our ignorance. I wish you all well.

 

[McMullen]

I am wondering about strong water flow as a necessity for some corals. If micro bubbles can produce initial sliming that tapers off as I have seen reported, I am wondering if that is stimulating the corals to getting rid of wastes that have built up. As there sliming was reported to disappear subsequently it might be an indication that with the wastes gone so is the sliming. If strong current is used to remove wastes in corals than strong current may no longer be needed if the micro bubbles do that function for the coral. It may be that a weaker current would suffice meaning there would not be as great a need for a very strong water flow. Instead of 10-20 water "changes" per hour maybe 5-10 etc. would be as effective. I understand current facilitates bringing nutrients, oxygen, eliminating wastes etc. but micro bubbles seems to aid in these as well. Has Elegant Corals or anyone done a study or had experience with reducing current when using micro bubbles?

Interesting thought. So if bubbling is removing waste there may additional be an exchange process where it adds beneficial "things," as well? Thus, no need for high flow because the bubbling affect performs the same role equally or better? Is this kind of what your saying and asking?

 

[Lasse]

IMO the demand for a strong flow in a coral aquarium is mostly because the photosynthesis and the following large production of oxygen. Oxygen mostly leaves the algae/animal through diffusion. The rate of this diffusion depends on area and the concentration differences at the microenvironment at the interface of the algae/animal and the water. A strong flow break the microenvironment and guarantee the lowest possible oxygen level in the water just in the interface between water and algae/animal during light period (and photosynthesis) . This counteract high oxygen build up in the tissue of algae/animal and minimizes the risk of oxygen radicals. During nights (no light) when the algae/animal need oxygen for “breathing” – a strong flow guarantee highest possible oxygen level in the microenvironment between the algae/animal and the water.

IMO – much light – much flow - no tricks break that formula.

Something else to think of – polyp expansion – larger contact area between the animal and water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[klp]

Interesting thought. So if bubbling is removing waste there may additional be an exchange process where it adds beneficial "things," as well? Thus, no need for high flow because the bubbling affect performs the same role equally or better? Is this kind of what your saying and asking?

I am not sure if it adds anything other than cleaning the tank and corals. There is possible nutrition for filter feeders and as the bubbles bring out trapped particles but that would be momentary at best. I am not sharp enough to digest all of what Lasse said but it is worth considering. As for me when I setup a new tank I will try it out and see how it affects the corals. I know there are areas of the reef where corals do well in low flow but not every coral would be found there. More questions than answers.

 

[Waterjockey]

I am wondering about strong water flow as a necessity for some corals. If micro bubbles can produce initial sliming that tapers off as I have seen reported, I am wondering if that is stimulating the corals to getting rid of wastes that have built up. As there sliming was reported to disappear subsequently it might be an indication that with the wastes gone so is the sliming. If strong current is used to remove wastes in corals than strong current may no longer be needed if the micro bubbles do that function for the coral. It may be that a weaker current would suffice meaning there would not be as great a need for a very strong water flow. Instead of 10-20 water "changes" per hour maybe 5-10 etc. would be as effective. I understand current facilitates bringing nutrients, oxygen, eliminating wastes etc. but micro bubbles seems to aid in these as well. Has Elegant Corals or anyone done a study or had experience with reducing current when using micro bubbles?

Coral slime keeps coming up in any of the threads on microbubbling, aparently as a good thing. Do we know that this is actually a good thing? I tried to do some google research on coral slime/mucus, and for all intents it doesn't sound like it's necessarily a good thing. 2 things I found is they slime either as (a) a stress response, or (b), the mucus acts as sort of a detrius trap, and when too much crap gets built up on the coating, they release the slime and start building a new coat. Can someone chime in who knows way more about this? Am I mis-understanding what is happening? It appears it's not "releasing toxins" per se as the impression some of these threads have given me, but more like changing a clogged filter because it's too plugged. If this is the case, do we want to be clogging up our corals slime coat?

Cheers+

 

[McMullen]

The statement that corals sliming is good is one of the "big," questions posed, but not answered. There seems to be an assumption that it's positive. Smarter people than me think perhaps it stresses corals and is a natural protective barrier. There are several people who have been bubbling for some period of time now without reported ill effects, but this doesn't mean any positive benefit is occurring. I want to believe there may be benefit but honestly it just seems counter intuitive! My brain cannot make since that bubbling brings in nutrition, O2, or gets rid of toxin

 

[Waterjockey]

The other question I have is, why put the airstone at the return pump inlet? I've heard claims the impeller "chops up" the bubbles finer. Is there some quantitative example this actually happens? Do we know it doesn't actually mash the bubbles together, making them bigger? Or no effect on bubble size at all? The reason I am asking why is when you entrain a *lot* of air, your water flow has to be dramatically reduced (this is easily testable on a case by case basis). Wouldn't it be more efficient to put the air stones near the bottom of the tank and let the circ pumps push them around everywhere rather than reducing your sump flows by...50...mebbe 75%?
It just seems like an un-necessary step to entrain the fine bubbles at the pump return, and the possible side loading on the impeller shafts/bearing surfaces.

Cheers!