Mindstream Aquarium Monitor

[reef_ranch]

As an engineer, I can tell you this is pretty typical of patents. The more the better, as you can cover more ground to protect yourself. I'd be surprised if there isn't some in there which cover manufacturing aspects too.

No doubt. These additional patents protect their right to capitalize on all potential revenue streams that can be generated from the use of the monitor. Good for them, this is what investors need to have to take the risk on the company. Ultimately, it benefits us since that's the only way we will ever be able to buy one of the monitors.

 

[evolved]

I'm just concerned whether bacterial growth on the sensing pad might impact the CO2 measurement to an extent that the expert folks from Sunburst with oceanographic experience may not have encountered. Such biofilms can trap CO2 under them since they will be producing it. This effect (with respect to O2) is why biopellets use disproportionately more nitrate than phosphate: because the biofilm keeps O2 from fully equilibrating under the film. Consequently, it may also impact O2 measurement, but folks don't care as much about that.

It doesn't take much of a layer of bacteria to impact diffusion of CO2 out of a biofilm. It need not be enough to visually see, I don't think. And not so much it will easily slough off. Even a monolayer of organic molecules on a water surface can deter transfer of gasses greatly.

FWIW, I have no idea how significant the effect might be for a tank like mine where I add quite a lot of organic matter each day, most of which ends up as CO2. A beta tester using a lot of added vodka/vinegar/etc. might notice this as an apparent (but not real) rise in alkalinity over the course of a month or two that is larger than a non-organic carbon user might encounter.

For example, I do not know how fast such a biofilm will build up to the point where this is important. It might be 2 weeks and it might be 6 months (or maybe not at all) on the particular surface they provide, but I'd expect it to be faster in my tank than in an ocean seawater sample.

For any Mindstream people who might read this, I have added the equivalent of roughly 22 ppm of acetic acid every day. That's probably the high end of what anyone needs to be worried about.

So thinking about this point of concern, I went looking through the patents. Now, just because this is in one of their patents doesn't actually mean they're using it in the device, but clearly they thought about it and developed a theoretical method of handling it. With that being said, it seems they worked around this issue by using known reference points on each pad for compensation.

From Patent US8797523:

Fluorescence Reading Contamination Compensation

In one exemplary aspect, with fluorescence, it is believed that most naturally occurring contamination/interference on the surface of a chemical indicator will reduce fluorescence, not increase it. Using corresponding reference illumination and measurement illumination spots, such as contamination and measurement spots 2516(1) and 2512(1) of FIG. 25, fluorescence emission measurements can be adjusted using the readings from both illumination spots at any reading location. For example, this adjustment can be made using a ratio of a reading of the reference illumination spot to a known calibration set point. To illustrate, if the reading from the reference illumination spot is supposed to always be 10,000 analog-to-digital (A/D) converter counts but a current reading is 9,800, then the ratio of the reading to the calibration set point is 9,800/10,000, or 0.98. The corresponding reading of the fluorescence emission from the same region of the chemical indicator at issue can then be divided by 0.98 to calculate a corrected reading. This method can also/alternatively be used to compensate for errors due to spacing variations between the reader and a chemical indicator, turbidity, and other factors. In the example utilizing four LEDs 2616(1) to 2616(4) (FIG. 26), since the same detector 2632 is used for all four light sources, this arrangement inherently compensates for the temperature of the detector.

 

[DaveMorris]

It sure would be nice if someone involved with the company would come on the forums and start answering questions. Seems to be the best and cheapest way to address any information gaps that might be holding potential backers away from the Kickstarter.

 

[evolved]

It sure would be nice if someone involved with the company would come on the forums and start answering questions. Seems to be the best and cheapest way to address any information gaps that might be holding potential backers away from the Kickstarter.

Agree, and at a minimum it seems one of them is at least watching. It's not coincidental their Kickstarter FAQ got updated Saturday with answers to specific questions raised here.

 

[Amoo]

Even as a backer, I can admit the lack of "transparency" or communication on their part, is concerning shall we say.

EDIT: You're selling the product to a select industry with active forums, get on those forums and communicate.

 

[Shep]

Agree, and at a minimum it seems one of them is at least watching. It's not coincidental their Kickstarter FAQ got updated Saturday with answers to specific questions raised here.

It would be bad business to not have at least some presence on the major forums.

 

[Reduck]

Just posted this on their Facebook page:
"As one of the backers, I'd like to invite Mindstream to join Reef2Reef forums and join in our conversation on your product. Many of us have questions and I believe it would help promote your product. There is a dedicated and long thread of questions and speculation that only you could clear up and probably get a few more supporters in the process! "

Let's see what happens!

 

[reef_ranch]

I agree that it would be great if the company had a presence here, but I wouldn't count on it. They have
many hundreds of thousands of dollars invested and might not want to risk it on an uncontrolled social
media Q&A. Even a well moderated forum such as this can devolve into flame wars. I would be happy if they flew Randy in and showed him the guts and he reported back. That would eliminate a lot of background noise and if he liked it, give us the stamp of approval we are looking for. They already did that with Jake, how about a chemist?

 

[NicksMixedReef]

I don't even care if they come on here and talk lol just post a video of mind stream working and take a test sample straight from the water and do a test with Hanna or something lol

 

[Amoo]

I mean no disrespect to Randy, or anybody else they have or will fly in for private testing or "marketing" as @redfishbluefish would so eloquently put it. The problem I have with that is it's too easy to pick and choose your feedback based on who you bring in and what kind of things you send them home with.

Please note I'm not suggesting Randy or anybody else would give feedback based on the hospitality of a company rather then the product in front of them, but after going through 10 years of EA Sports and that garbage, I can do without that "hype" style marketing. There's a reason EA Sports dumped most of their sports franchises, and while part of it is exclusivity, other parts of it we're flying in "testers" with private websites who hyped their products up as something they were not. Been there, done that, got a few t-shirts.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So thinking about this point of concern, I went looking through the patents. Now, just because this is in one of their patents doesn't actually mean they're using it in the device, but clearly they thought about it and developed a theoretical method of handling it. With that being said, it seems they worked around this issue by using known reference points on each pad for compensation.

From Patent US8797523:

Thanks. FWIW, my concern is not so much that the bacteria themselves will impact the results, which the Mindstream folks will have encountered in testing, but that in some tanks those bacteria may be producing and potentially trapping an unusually large amount of CO2 directly on the CO2 sensing pad.

The patent description helps from random scattering and other issues that fouling may cause, but not a locally high CO2 level that is not reflective of the bulk water (if it happens).

 

[NicksMixedReef]

Seems the kickstarter has slowed down tremendously :/

 

[Kaba]

Randy, the rotating of the disk against the wipes between readings should be enough to slough off a microbial layer that grows either on the fluorescent disks or the optical sensors. 15 minutes shouldn't be enough time to grow more than a very thin layer of microbial cells that will slough off quite easily. And the rotating itself should also advect potential old water stuck between the fluorescence disk and the sensors with fresh tank water.

 

[DaveMorris]

I agree that it would be great if the company had a presence here, but I wouldn't count on it. They have
many hundreds of thousands of dollars invested and might not want to risk it on an uncontrolled social
media Q&A.

You are probably correct that they won't come on here, but I completely disagree with the logic. In this day and age, it is almost critical that companies, especially new ones, saturate social media if they hope to get a lot out of highly specialized markets like this one. They already have a Facebook page. Having somebody spend a couple hours a week directly addressing questions and hyping the product a bit would be very smart. If even 5 or 6 of us got swayed to participate in the kickstarter or buy the product outright based on their direct answers, it would be worth it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, the rotating of the disk against the wipes between readings should be enough to slough off a microbial layer that grows either on the fluorescent disks or the optical sensors. 15 minutes shouldn't be enough time to grow more than a very thin layer of microbial cells that will slough off quite easily. And the rotating itself should also advect potential old water stuck between the fluorescence disk and the sensors with fresh tank water.

I don't think the pads are smooth like glass (they look to have a matt finish in the video). They presumably are porous and I'm not convinced a wiper will remove bacteria that get into it or exist as a thin biofilm on it. It is a good solution if the goal is to remove a layer so thick it scatters visible light, which is what the patent refers to, but does not necessarily prevent what I'm concerned with.

In any case, testing in an aquarium using a significant amount of organic carbon dosing will tell better than any speculation we can do.

 

[reef_ranch]

You are probably correct that they won't come on here, but I completely disagree with the logic. In this day and age, it is almost critical that companies, especially new ones, saturate social media if they hope to get a lot out of highly specialized markets like this one. They already have a Facebook page. Having somebody spend a couple hours a week directly addressing questions and hyping the product a bit would be very smart. If even 5 or 6 of us got swayed to participate in the kickstarter or buy the product outright based on their direct answers, it would be worth it.

If that were the certain result, you're right. One the other hand, being forced to engage five or six hypercritical naysayers may dissuade many more from purchasing. That's the risk. Their plan seems to be to monitor the boards and post FAQ responses to answer the more valid questions.

The problem I now see is that if the launch of the product depends on raising $300k in Kickstarter, they need to kickstart the interest. They're not even a third of the way there yet. Maybe its time to throw caution to the wind and engage the community more directly. If they are going to launch the product regardless of the Kickstarter results, then they probably will remain cautious and wait for the MACNA full reveal.

 

[Kaba]

Biofilms and biofouling have been problems since the beginning of oceanographic research. Every optical sensor I've used in the field meant to be out for extended periods has a wiper, and you can definitely see in the data if the wiper fails, especially with oxygen, which is usually pretty good compared to Winkler titrations (at least on the YSI 6600)...even in water where the visibility is measured in inches.
I have no idea what exactly the wipes on the mindstream will be, but all the ones I've used were either little felt-like pads, or brushes, and they usually do a good job.

(That bottom sensor is a little surprised)

 

[NicksMixedReef]

Biofilms and biofouling have been problems since the beginning of oceanographic research. Every optical sensor I've used in the field meant to be out for extended periods has a wiper, and you can definitely see in the data if the wiper fails, especially with oxygen, which is usually pretty good compared to Winkler titrations (at least on the YSI 6600)...even in water where the visibility is measured in inches.
I have no idea what exactly the wipes on the mindstream will be, but all the ones I've used were either little felt-like pads, or brushes, and they usually do a good job.

(That bottom sensor is a little surprised)

I literally laughed out loud at the bottom sensor lol

 

[redfishbluefish]

Forget about the one sensor going, "Oh!," how about the two parts that are very scary? Am I the only one seeing these?




One looks Cookie Monster like and the other looks like something you'd see in The Nightmare before Christmas!

 

[Kaba]

The top right one is conductivity and the bottom left is pH. The other 4 are optical sensors. Probably turbidity, oxygen, chlorophyll a, and maybe cDOM. Trying to illustrate how well the wipers have worked for the optical sensors.