Mindstream Aquarium Monitor

[NicksMixedReef]

Oh I read how he said it now lol it's early still for me! Hahaha

 

[jack89]

Read 10 pages of discussio ...... Phew

I am interested in this product ..... Planning to back it offff !!!

 

[redfishbluefish]

I do apologize if some found the sheep analogy offensive. What I meant with this analogy is just like sheep not knowing what they are in for when going up the chute, all these folks talking about Mindstream have no idea as well, having never seen one or heard firsthand from a user about what it can do. We are in the dark, but people have all lined up with cash in hand heading for the chute. I do wish the company well and applaud them for being first out. This is a great advantage with new product introductions, and I'll repeat, A++ Marketing job.

And @Kaba, thank you very much for your detailed explaination. As a chemist and having retired in 2001 (at a very young age....I'm not that old!), it has given me a better understanding of what's going on with the technology. Light flourescents equipment wasn't around when I played in the lab (to the best of my knowledge), but x-ray flourescents was, and have to believe there are some similarities. It certainly looks like very promising technology, and gives me a warm fuzzy feeling for the chemistry side of the product.

Here's my bottom line.....Mindstream is going to cost $XXX.XX to purchase and $YYY.YY for yearly foil costs. Note I used X's and Y's because again, we are in the dark. I'm extremely happy with my wet chemistry test kits that have a fraction of the yearly costs, and find spending all that money on something unproven a bit bothersome. Now I say that having said in the past that I'd never spend the money on Vortechs, and I now own five of them....so go figure. Now where's the end of the line for that sheep chute? I need to get into it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've been lurking here for a few years, but for this I decided to sign up and post about the mindstream.

I'm working on my PhD in Oceanography at FSU right now, and work a lot with in situ fluorescence sensors, mostly cDOM, oxygen, and CO2.
Light at a specific wavelength hits a dye, causing fluorescence, which is read back on a photosensor.

How much do those devices cost you?

Probably not the same price as suggest here, right? Hence the potential concerns.

 

[Amoo]

I do apologize if some found the sheep analogy offensive. What I meant with this analogy is just like sheep not knowing what they are in for when going up the chute, all these folks talking about Mindstream have no idea as well, having never seen one or heard firsthand from a user about what it can do. We are in the dark, but people have all lined up with cash in hand heading for the chute. I do wish the company well and applaud them for being first out. This is a great advantage with new product introductions, and I'll repeat, A++ Marketing job.

While I'm not sure the apology was necessary, though I don't know what your inbox looks like, I can see both your side and others. To me your original post came off as somebody who felt as if people were lining up to give money to receive a product they know nothing about. To an extent you are correct, but also incorrect. As I mentioned previously, supporting kickstarters goes way beyond the individual product you are supporting. Kickstarter rewards for any products give out tier rewards which may convince people to support at a high $ amount then they would have originally, but as I mentioned before, the reasons to support a kickstater are vast. If you're going to take something to kickstarter you better have good marketing (unless you're making potato salad, don't even get me started). You're basically asking for donations from complete strangers to donate to your idea to develop something. The farther along your idea is and the closer to being a reality, the easier it is to get public support (generally speaking).

Here's my bottom line.....Mindstream is going to cost $XXX.XX to purchase and $YYY.YY for yearly foil costs. Note I used X's and Y's because again, we are in the dark. I'm extremely happy with my wet chemistry test kits that have a fraction of the yearly costs, and find spending all that money on something unproven a bit bothersome. Now I say that having said in the past that I'd never spend the money on Vortechs, and I now own five of them....so go figure. Now where's the end of the line for that sheep chute? I need to get into it.

What you just said is IMO going to be the biggest hurdle for this product or others which will come after it. There is no way $ for $ this unit is going to be cheaper then grabbing some of our standard test kits we use today. What each person has to look at though is what is your time worth. How much time a week does each one of us spend testing? How much more would we test if it was easier then it is? What's the opportunity cost of having our current numbers available every 20 minutes?

So IMO it's always going to be cheaper to grab some Hanna/Red Sea/Sailfert kits and test once or twice a week (daily for alk). It's also always going to be cheaper to grab some Jabeos instead of some Vortechs, like you mentioned.

I personally chose to back this product (keep in mind some of these kickstarters are donations refer to your local accountant as to how to handle) because I support the idea of accurate 24-7 monitoring at a reasonable cost. What is a reasonable cost to some is different then to others, I stand behind the belief that $1 a day is that sweet spot. I'm personally interested in running tests on these different parameters at different ages and figuring out how long I can get a disc to last in my system. This unit has the potential to replace 3 test kits, 1 hanna, a few APEX probes, a refract, a few temp sensors and give me a potassium test I currently don't test for. I get to try it out for $500 and my cost to use is $30-$50/mo. Units will retail for $700-900 which means if I'm not satisfied with the unit by the time it releases, I should be able to recoup most of my initial cost, which would leave me out the $30-50/mo I paid to use it in my testing.

 

[Shep]

(keep in mind these are donations refer to your local accountant as to how to handle)

Actually they are not considered donations because you get rewards, Kickstarter states this in their FAQs.

 

[Amoo]

Actually they are not considered donations because you get rewards, Kickstarter states this in their FAQs.

You are correct in that this product is not specifically tax deductible, some projects I support are. Poor wording on my part, but thank you for clarifying.

 

[lexinverts]

How much do those devices cost you?

Probably not the same price as suggest here, right? Hence the potential concerns.

In my experience, research grade equipment that caters to researchers who generally purchase their equipment with grant money or startup packages is often priced much higher than products that are aimed at the consumer market. It's a bit of a racket, unfortunately.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In my experience, research grade equipment that caters to researchers who generally purchase their equipment with grant money or startup packages is often priced much higher than products that are aimed at the consumer market. It's a bit of a racket, unfortunately.

Yes, that's the inherent issue with very low volume equipment: high costs.

Mindstream's trick will be to convert a low volume high priced product into a medium volume lower cost product while retaining sufficient reliability.

IMO, Kaba's comment: "And teaming up with Sunburst for the CO2 and pH sensors is like teaming up with Lamborghini to make a new car." is apt in more than just high quality. It is apt in cost. If you really asked Lamborghini to make a cheap car, it would end up like a Ford Fiesta. Not a Lamborghini with a price 10x lower.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So since we are speculating wildly here about something we know little about in practical use in a reef tank, I'd add some additional thoughts that one may want to evaluate.

If the disks are in the tank water for an extended period, they may get a biofilm on them. Assuming they are adequately kept in the dark, that will be primarily bacteria (if not kept dark, the issues are worse, IMO, due to local photosynthesis)

In many of our systems, we intentionally drive bacterial growth with added organics. I do. And those bacteria in my system are primarily growing on surfaces of various sorts. That is something that isn't necessarily happening to the same extent in true ocean sensors, such as SAMI devices. Note that Sunburst Sensors sells a special biofouling package for "productive environments", but doesn't detail very much what it comprises or how it works (or what sort of fouling they are most worried about):

http://www.sunburstsensors.com/products/accessories-options.html

So, as those overgrowing bacteria are metabolizing organics like the acetic acid (vinegar) I add, they may be producing locally high CO2 concentrations. This might even be the limiting factor in how long a disk is good for in such a reef tank. Maybe this is one of the reasons the lifetime of the disks is somewhat uncertain before extensive beta testing. FWIW, this sort of process may be the way that other sensors (such as pH and ORP) an get messed up when left too long in a tank.

 

[Electrobes]

Wonder if that is why the discs life went from 90 days to 30...

 

[Amoo]

Randy, not sure if you saw this:

#6 How does the MindStream handle biofouling and things growing on it?

This was one of our most pressing questions, and were really concerned that any number of things could interfere with the function of the MindStream monitor. Thankfully, the MindStream has a number of features built in to it to prevent a great deal of biofouling, and to make sure the device keeps reading accurately.

For the bigger animals, the MindStream disc rotates back and forth almost all of the time even when it is not scanning its chemical sensors; this keeps snails and other things from climbing onto the disc, and it keeps pods and worms from getting under the disc where they are not welcome. Furthermore, there is a small brush built into each and every disc that gently wipes the photo sensors to keep it nice and clean, but it doesn’t really need it as much as you’d think because the whole unit is made out of a special “space age plastic”. Zeonex is virtually impermeable to water, and has 16 times less adhesion to protein – simply put, things can’t really grow on the MindStream monitor or disc even if they wanted to, not like other black plastics anyway.

Furthermore, the sensor pads are photoreactive, that is they degrade with exposure to certain wavelengths of light, and it is their color and fluorescence that is read by the monitor itself. Therefore the active area of the MindStream sensor discs is specially designed to reduce any stray light from reaching the working area.


Read more: http://reefbuilders.com/2015/07/29/answers-top-10-questions-mindstream/#ixzz3hm7wOMGJ

Not entirely the total answer you are looking for, but definitely something to consider.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, not sure if you saw this:



Not entirely the total answer you are looking for, but definitely something to consider.

I didn't, thanks. Obviously it is an issue they are trying to address, at least for larger organisms. It's a little confusing as it seems to confound talking about the photosensor and the disk, which must have very different properties. The fluorescent disk presumably must be permeable to water for things like H+ to enter, and would presumably be a place bacteria may like, even if the photosensor itself is not.

Perhaps I am just misunderstanding the setup without a schematic in hand, but I don't see how a sensor could be permeable to H+ to detect it and and not allow water to enter.

 

[Amoo]

There are individual wipers installed on each sensor (according to one of the videos), but how well they function is really a matter of testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There are individual wipers installed on each sensor (according to one of the videos), but how well they function is really a matter of testing.

So by sensor, you mean the fluorescent pad that detects the chemicals, or the photosensor that detects the light emitted by the pad? The above quote seems to say it is the light sensor, not the thing that detects the chemicals.

 

[Amoo]

I have to figure out which video I saw it on, so take this with a grain of salt until I can, but I believe what was said that each individual sensor has individual wipers.

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I think it also said it In the Q&A if I remember correctly

 

[Greenstreet.1]

#6 How does the MindStream handle biofouling and things growing on it?

This was one of our most pressing questions, and were really concerned that any number of things could interfere with the function of the MindStream monitor. Thankfully, the MindStream has a number of features built in to it to prevent a great deal of biofouling, and to make sure the device keeps reading accurately.

For the bigger animals, the MindStream disc rotates back and forth almost all of the time even when it is not scanning its chemical sensors; this keeps snails and other things from climbing onto the disc, and it keeps pods and worms from getting under the disc where they are not welcome. Furthermore, there is a small brush built into each and every disc that gently wipes the photo sensors to keep it nice and clean, but it doesn’t really need it as much as you’d think because the whole unit is made out of a special “space age plastic”. Zeonex is virtually impermeable to water, and has 16 times less adhesion to protein – simply put, things can’t really grow on the MindStream monitor or disc even if they wanted to, not like other black plastics anyway.

Furthermore, the sensor pads are photoreactive, that is they degrade with exposure to certain wavelengths of light, and it is their color and fluorescence that is read by the monitor itself. Therefore the active area of the MindStream sensor discs is specially designed to reduce any stray light from reaching the working area.



Read more: http://reefbuilders.com/2015/07/29/answers-top-10-questions-mindstream/#ixzz3hmJVl3JW

 

[Reduck]

You just beat me to it @Greenstreet.1

I had just reread that FAQ and saw that..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That says the photosensor is wiped, right, not the chemical sensing pad, which is the part that concerns me. That's why I'm saying the writeup is confounding two different parts. The chemical sensing pad cannot exclude water either (I don't think). But again, I do no have a schematic to understand how these parts relate to one another.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the device, but there must be a chemically sensitive part which binds the chemicals of interest, and which light of some wavelength hits to drive the fluorescence. This is the part that a small layer of growing bacteria on might impact CO2 readings.

Then that fluorescent signal (emitted light) is detected by the photo sensor, which is what they say is wiped. That's a different part that certainly could be water and protein resistant, as they claim.