Amoo
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I'm in for December. Wasn't sure if I was going to back it or not, but the release of some of the information we have been talking about has swayed my decision from "probably not" to "sure why not".
Mindstream Aquarium Monitor
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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Mirya
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Yup, I feel the same!
Amoo
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I personally feel long term success for this unit is going to be determined by their monthly cost to run. If we do a bunch of testing and find out the disks barely make 30 days and we're paying $45 a piece, then I don't see this thing being very successful. Now if they can maintain accurate measurements and tout the advertizing as "For less then $1 a day", then I see it actually going somewhere.
lexinverts
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I'm in for December. The two times I have suffered an SPS tank crash, I have lost (at least) the value of this monitor in corals each time. If this thing works like they say it should, then if I am running it I should be less likely to lose corals due to alk spikes, dosing snafus, etc..., and then I don't think the price is unreasonable at all.
OP
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Well I do not think that it has any controller integration as of yet so it could tell you that you have a spike or dip but unless you were home there would not be anything you could do
Greenstreet.1
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Quick ? Can you not see the readings out the internet if you are not home ? If you can then if you see a change then you can go to your apex and correct it. Correct me if I'm wrong cause this is one of the reasons I'm interested in it.
redfishbluefish
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Here's my 0.02 cents:
I give the marketing folks at MindStream an A+......Absolutely fantastic job. They have been able to sell the Brooklyn Bridge before a single piece of granite has been layed.
The articles proclaiming what this new fangled device could do....some of it speculation.
The Kickstarter announcement....selling something that's not been seen or proven.
And MACNA announcement..... with still no products to actually sell...that booth will be jam-flooded with sheep......I mean people.
And the Beta folks not getting their units until October.
Not a single unit seen or tested.....but everyone is lined up to plop down an unknown amount of major cash for an unknown device.
Bravo to the marketing folks. I'm not buying a Mindstream, but I'd hire the marketing folks at the drop of a hat!
I give the marketing folks at MindStream an A+......Absolutely fantastic job. They have been able to sell the Brooklyn Bridge before a single piece of granite has been layed.
The articles proclaiming what this new fangled device could do....some of it speculation.
The Kickstarter announcement....selling something that's not been seen or proven.
And MACNA announcement..... with still no products to actually sell...that booth will be jam-flooded with sheep......I mean people.
And the Beta folks not getting their units until October.
Not a single unit seen or tested.....but everyone is lined up to plop down an unknown amount of major cash for an unknown device.
Bravo to the marketing folks. I'm not buying a Mindstream, but I'd hire the marketing folks at the drop of a hat!
NicksMixedReef
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To give them the benefit of the doubt, I do trust reef builders when they say things about something. After all that's what they are known for
Amoo
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I can only guess some of you folks aren't used to how kickstarters are used in different industries. Reasons to support kickstarters are also different across the board. Some of the reasons just off the top of my head: Support change, support specific company, support specific idea...etc. So while this product may or may not be successful, if kickstarter goals are met and enough people are interested, other companies take notice. We've all heard the term "vote with your wallet". Kickstarter is the ultimate vote with your wallet. You're sending a loud and clear message that you feel the need for this exists and your willing to support somebody making an effort to bring it to you. Sure some folks only want to pay for something when it's developed and ready to be used, and there's nothing wrong with that. At the same time there is nothing wrong with paying to send a message or paying to support and idea...etc. It has much less to do with "fool's gold" or whatever else some might think, and much more to do with supporting an idea you believe in.
lexinverts
Well-Known Member
That's when I would adjust my doser via my controller or just walk over to the tank and do it manually.
lexinverts
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Sheep?
Reefbuilders went to their headquarters and got to play around with one of their units. You can see what they thought of it on their blog.
The analytical chemist who has developed and tested the device is a tenured professor and expert in fluorescence technology at the University of Vermont.
People will flock to their booth at MACNA because any reasonable reef enthusiest would be excited about the evidence thus presented, which suggests they are on the cusp of releasing a revolutionary new product.
redfishbluefish
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I do believe we are in agreement....great marketing!!!
lexinverts
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I agree that they have good marketing.
But I do not agree with the your comment that people who are excited by the upcoming release of this product are "sheep."
I'm generally skeptical of new products, especially high-priced ones. However, I also generally trust that tenured chemistry professors in world-class universities like UVM are not out to scam people.
Kaba
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I've been lurking here for a few years, but for this I decided to sign up and post about the mindstream.
I'm working on my PhD in Oceanography at FSU right now, and work a lot with in situ fluorescence sensors, mostly cDOM, oxygen, and CO2.
Light at a specific wavelength hits a dye, causing fluorescence, which is read back on a photosensor. For oxygen, the fluorescence get's scattered by the parameter you are measuring, so the fluorescence back to the sensor is lower than expected, and that is a pretty clear relationship. This is the technology that companies like Presens, Ocean Optics, YSI, Hach, Seabird, and Aanderaa use now, which replaced the membrane sensors (which were the worst) which replaced winkler titrations (which is even worse). Oxygen is a tough thing to measure, because things will be using it, creating it, and it'll be trying to equilibrate with the air all at once.
But this fluorescence technology is insanely accurate and precise. And teaming up with Sunburst for the CO2 and pH sensors is like teaming up with Lamborghini to make a new car. Oceanographic instruments are generally in the 0.5-1.0% error range, and need to be that steady for prolonged deployments.
There is no doubt in my mind that is thing is going to be highly accurate, and I feel that the sensor discs will fall out of research accuracy within 30 days, but probably be within hobby test kit accuracy for 3-6 months. These fluorescent foils do degrade over time, But I guess the only real way to test that is to use a disc for 3-6 months, then switch it out and see how different the readings are.
As far as nitrate and phosphate go...those are not very easy things to measure. How we do it at home is pretty much how they do it in labs, but slightly more automated. Most nutrient labs have Lachat Quikchems that pump the sample through reaction cells where reagents are added, then through a spec to measure light absorbance. Tedious and arduous, I haven't met a person who works with one who didn't hate their instrument. I haven't heard of any fluorescence measurement for phosphate yet, and the only one for nitrate gets thrown off by chloride, which is pretty high in our tanks.
As for the mindstream syncing with an Apex controller, that shouldn't be too hard. The mindstream unit itself measures fluorescence and uploads that to the cloud (through a series of tubes) where the calculations are done, and you look up your parameters there. I think through the mindstream you'll be able to get alerts, but since the Apex system is in the cloud too, it shouldn't be unreasonable to allow them to talk to each other. Apex has modules for just about everything it seems, so this should be a no brainer. But I can see people waiting on the mindstream for Apex support, and Apex waiting on people to buy the mindstream before it supports it. Good old fashioned Mexican standoff.
DL;DR
1.) The mindstream alkalinity is going to blow however you test your alkalinity away, even pH titrations.
2.) The sensor disc accuracy will probably be plenty accurate (compared to hobby test kits) for a few months (some may degrade faster than others).
3.) Phosphate and nitrate are not easy to test, and no technology exists (that I'm aware of) to measure their fluorescence in seawater. All these other ones did exist. If you're waiting on those parameters, you should find a comfy chair and good book, cause it's gonna be a while.
4.) Shouldn't be unreasonable to expect the Apex and Mindstream to talk, as they are both cloud based. Now since I barely know what the cloud is, so someone else will now come along and tell me how wrong I am. But it could lead to Apex waiting on mindstream adopters and mindstream adopters waiting on Apex.
I'm working on my PhD in Oceanography at FSU right now, and work a lot with in situ fluorescence sensors, mostly cDOM, oxygen, and CO2.
Light at a specific wavelength hits a dye, causing fluorescence, which is read back on a photosensor. For oxygen, the fluorescence get's scattered by the parameter you are measuring, so the fluorescence back to the sensor is lower than expected, and that is a pretty clear relationship. This is the technology that companies like Presens, Ocean Optics, YSI, Hach, Seabird, and Aanderaa use now, which replaced the membrane sensors (which were the worst) which replaced winkler titrations (which is even worse). Oxygen is a tough thing to measure, because things will be using it, creating it, and it'll be trying to equilibrate with the air all at once.
But this fluorescence technology is insanely accurate and precise. And teaming up with Sunburst for the CO2 and pH sensors is like teaming up with Lamborghini to make a new car. Oceanographic instruments are generally in the 0.5-1.0% error range, and need to be that steady for prolonged deployments.
There is no doubt in my mind that is thing is going to be highly accurate, and I feel that the sensor discs will fall out of research accuracy within 30 days, but probably be within hobby test kit accuracy for 3-6 months. These fluorescent foils do degrade over time, But I guess the only real way to test that is to use a disc for 3-6 months, then switch it out and see how different the readings are.
As far as nitrate and phosphate go...those are not very easy things to measure. How we do it at home is pretty much how they do it in labs, but slightly more automated. Most nutrient labs have Lachat Quikchems that pump the sample through reaction cells where reagents are added, then through a spec to measure light absorbance. Tedious and arduous, I haven't met a person who works with one who didn't hate their instrument. I haven't heard of any fluorescence measurement for phosphate yet, and the only one for nitrate gets thrown off by chloride, which is pretty high in our tanks.
As for the mindstream syncing with an Apex controller, that shouldn't be too hard. The mindstream unit itself measures fluorescence and uploads that to the cloud (through a series of tubes) where the calculations are done, and you look up your parameters there. I think through the mindstream you'll be able to get alerts, but since the Apex system is in the cloud too, it shouldn't be unreasonable to allow them to talk to each other. Apex has modules for just about everything it seems, so this should be a no brainer. But I can see people waiting on the mindstream for Apex support, and Apex waiting on people to buy the mindstream before it supports it. Good old fashioned Mexican standoff.
DL;DR
1.) The mindstream alkalinity is going to blow however you test your alkalinity away, even pH titrations.
2.) The sensor disc accuracy will probably be plenty accurate (compared to hobby test kits) for a few months (some may degrade faster than others).
3.) Phosphate and nitrate are not easy to test, and no technology exists (that I'm aware of) to measure their fluorescence in seawater. All these other ones did exist. If you're waiting on those parameters, you should find a comfy chair and good book, cause it's gonna be a while.
4.) Shouldn't be unreasonable to expect the Apex and Mindstream to talk, as they are both cloud based. Now since I barely know what the cloud is, so someone else will now come along and tell me how wrong I am. But it could lead to Apex waiting on mindstream adopters and mindstream adopters waiting on Apex.
Electrobes
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@Kaba Thanks for the insight!
NicksMixedReef
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Why do you say the alkalinity is going to "blow"
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