Mindstream Aquarium Monitor

[NicksMixedReef]

I know lol I'd like them to maybe chime in and let everyone know. Id support it if I knew how they did it

 

[Greenstreet.1]

I know lol I'd like them to maybe chime in and let everyone know. Id support it if I knew how they did it

I'm also waiting to hear more from them before I make my move

 

[gettaReef]

Well, bear in mind I've got nothing against the device. They also may use all 4 parameters to get to alk, and just didn't tell people.

Randy, maybe you've covered this already but I don't remember seeing it. If they DO include all 4 parameters (ph, c02, temp, salinity) in calculating an alkalinity measurement, then how accurate would that measurement be? Thank you

 

[Reduck]

Well, bear in mind I've got nothing against the device. They also may use all 4 parameters to get to alk, and just didn't tell people.

I'm just amazed that they are not standing outside your front door with a prototype for you to test just to get your opinion and possible buy in.
I mean why leave one of the most respected names in reefing to guess and postulate how well it works?

(I still must have some marketing skills left in my brain) I'll go beat my head on the wall for a bit so the thought is gone....

 

[NeverlosT]

Man, there are a lot of doom and gloomers on here.

A. You dont know what they are using to calculate ALK, 2 or 4 parameters, and the salinity is measured by the unit, and it would be crazy to not measure temp, so that makes getting the ALK via 4 parameters a matter of calculation. Lets contact mindstream and ask if they are using all 4.
B. This is the first product that is anywhere NEAR being able to calculate that many parameters in real time.
C. They have a kickstarter. If you dont think that the prospect of spending $25 to help advance reef testing technology into the modern era, then you are nuts. Think of it as a lottery. $25 to get in, and if you win, you never have to use a crappy test kit again.

Just think of the last $25 frag you bought that got nuked because some parameter in your tank wasn't rock solid. Time to put an end to all that.

They got my money, and all hypothetical chemistry concerns aside, this is a good idea. Support it. The world needs more good ideas to get supported.

 

[Reduck]

Man, there are a lot of doom and gloomers on here.

A. You dont know what they are using to calculate ALK, 2 or 4 parameters, and the salinity is measured by the unit, and it would be crazy to not measure temp, so that makes getting the ALK via 4 parameters a matter of calculation. Lets contact mindstream and ask if they are using all 4.
B. This is the first product that is anywhere NEAR being able to calculate that many parameters in real time.
C. They have a kickstarter. If you dont think that the prospect of spending $25 to help advance reef testing technology into the modern era, then you are nuts. Think of it as a lottery. $25 to get in, and if you win, you never have to use a crappy test kit again.

Just think of the last $25 frag you bought that got nuked because some parameter in your tank wasn't rock solid. Time to put an end to all that.

They got my money, and all hypothetical chemistry concerns aside, this is a good idea. Support it. The world needs more good ideas to get supported.

It's a lot of money to put out for a device that hasn't been proven or delivered yet.

That said, I was #3 for the entire package. I am a firm believer in technology. It's the business I'm in, so if I can't believe in them, I can't believe in me. We build a lot of products that never get to market. They may be great, but not everyone sees it the same way. We don't build stuff for personal satisfaction. We build it to make money for our employers. Mindstream is not doing all this dev for giggles. They're doing it with a functioning business model.

And I doubt I will never have to use a test kit again. While this tests for the majors, there is no immediate mention of other future parameter checking. Plus, if the unit fails for an unknown reason, it's imperative to have a backup plan. Besides the fact of trust. I trust the kits I use. It will take me a while to trust this device the same way.

 

[NeverlosT]

Obviously one would keep test kits "just in case" and to check on the unit. Testing 1/month until you trust it is far better than testing every couple of days.

I just think it is funny that the industry is full of people dying to plop 1k down for the newest LED light (which has been proven to work, but also has been proven to nuke your tank if not used correctly), but they wouldnt spare $500 for something as revolutionary as this which runs itself and at worst will do no harm.

I agree with you. Technology is improving all the time, embrace it.

 

[Servo]

I wish they would have asked you to be an independent industry consultant. Having your confidence backing the technology in public arenas would be the best money spent for them. Of course, you would have you had a NDA, have counsuling on what you could divulge, and have right of refusal to allow them to disclose you as a consultant. I backed it. I was a part of the focus group, and knowing how they are running their business (venture capital, 10 generational product redesigns prior to launch etc) gives me assurance that I'm not buying a lemon. Their business model is classic to many upstarts, but unique in this hobby.

 

[007Bond]

As already posted...I don't understand why they are not answering questions put up here. After all this is not RC...go head chime in about your product!!

 

[chefjpaul]

As already posted...I don't understand why they are not answering questions put up here. After all this is not RC...go head chime in about your product!!

MACNA- debut.

Randy- are you attending?
If so I would love to be there at their booth as a fly on the wall, unfortunately I'll be diving the Barrier Reef that week.

 

[Shep]

MACNA- debut.

Randy- are you attending?
If so I would love to be there at their booth as a fly on the wall, unfortunately I'll be diving the Barrier Reef that week.

poor you

 

[Reduck]

As already posted...I don't understand why they are not answering questions put up here. After all this is not RC...go head chime in about your product!!

Now this is funny and true and sad all at the same time. I was trying to cross post some more infor on this device to some friends over there yesterday...and the auto censor was blocking it all...I gave up and told them to google it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, maybe you've covered this already but I don't remember seeing it. If they DO include all 4 parameters (ph, c02, temp, salinity) in calculating an alkalinity measurement, then how accurate would that measurement be? Thank you

It could be very accurate for carbonate alkalinity. If someone wants total alkalinity (as we get from an ordinary titration) then one would have to somehow estimate or know the contribution from borate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

MACNA- debut.

Randy- are you attending?
If so I would love to be there at their booth as a fly on the wall, unfortunately I'll be diving the Barrier Reef that week.

Unfortunately, no I can't attend.

 

[SaltwaterLee]

It might require a look up table for the constants, although there may be ordinary equations that relate them to salinity and temperature.

The ultimate equation is fairly simple:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: The Relationship Between Alkalinity And pH ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Carbonate alkalinity (Ac) is mathematically defined as:

1. Ac = [HCO3-] + 2[CO3--]

Where [X] means the concentration of species X. Carbonate (CO3--) is counted twice because it contributes two units of alkalinity for each unit of concentration. The relationship between the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate to pH is well defined if the system is at equilibrium with the atmosphere. Substituting these known relationships into equation 1, we get:

2. Ac = (K1KHPCO2 / [H+]) + 2(K1K2KHPCO2 / [H+]↑2)

where pCO2 is the concentration CO2 in the air. Current carbon dioxide concentrations are around 350 ppm and have been rising with time, from less than 300 ppm in preindustrial times. KH is the Henry's law constant for CO2(which describes the solubility of CO2 in water from the air to form carbonic acid, H2CO3), K1 is the first dissociation constant for H2CO3 (describing the dissociation of H2CO3 to HCO3-), and K2 is the second dissociation constant for H2CO3 (describing the dissociation of HCO3- to CO3--).

If the calculation requires a level CO2 content in the air then this could be problematic. CO2 levels indoors are almost never at baseline atmospheric levels. I have a NetAtmo weather station in my house, which includes an indoor CO2 monitor. Watching the readings shows me how often indoor CO2 can be much higher than atmospheric baseline readings outdoors. In my recently built house, i.e. well insulated and sealed the CO2 level fluctuates greatly, and can run as high as 3x atmospheric levels quite easily. Open a door or window, it drops, have a bunch of people over for an evening with the house closed up and it skyrockets to 1200+. While I'm sure these readings aren't really accurate, it does show that it can vary greatly, and I think we've all known this anyway, it's often the root cause of lower pH in reef tanks. So unless you can factor this in, would the local level of CO2 in the room a reef tank is located throw off the calculation significantly? Say a tank is more often exposed to an average CO2 level of 600 ppm rather than a baseline 350 ppm, seems like it would throw things off quite a bit. And then you have the issue of seasonal CO2 shifts indoors, higher in heating and cooling months, lower in months where windows/doors are open more.

 

[ReefMadScientist]

Man, there are a lot of doom and gloomers on here.

A. You dont know what they are using to calculate ALK, 2 or 4 parameters, and the salinity is measured by the unit, and it would be crazy to not measure temp, so that makes getting the ALK via 4 parameters a matter of calculation. Lets contact mindstream and ask if they are using all 4.
B. This is the first product that is anywhere NEAR being able to calculate that many parameters in real time.
C. They have a kickstarter. If you dont think that the prospect of spending $25 to help advance reef testing technology into the modern era, then you are nuts. Think of it as a lottery. $25 to get in, and if you win, you never have to use a crappy test kit again.

Just think of the last $25 frag you bought that got nuked because some parameter in your tank wasn't rock solid. Time to put an end to all that.

They got my money, and all hypothetical chemistry concerns aside, this is a good idea. Support it. The world needs more good ideas to get supported.

So we are considered "doom and gloomers" since we are not rushing to this companies side with our wallets opened without learning valuable information? O-k.

So I guess we are not allowed to question this product and just jump on the hype train right?

The fact is, there are a lot of variables that are missing for us "doom and gloomers". If the company succeeds then perfect! Who are you to say people need to donate $25 dollars. Some people think that is a lot of money and others think we need additional information before dropping a dollar.

And sure, you may never need to use "a crappy test kit again" but you will have to pay per year for renewing this products testing abilities.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If the calculation requires a level CO2 content in the air then this could be problematic. CO2 levels indoors are almost never at baseline atmospheric levels. I have a NetAtmo weather station in my house, which includes an indoor CO2 monitor. Watching the readings shows me how often indoor CO2 can be much higher than atmospheric baseline readings outdoors. In my recently built house, i.e. well insulated and sealed the CO2 level fluctuates greatly, and can run as high as 3x atmospheric levels quite easily. Open a door or window, it drops, have a bunch of people over for an evening with the house closed up and it skyrockets to 1200+. While I'm sure these readings aren't really accurate, it does show that it can vary greatly, and I think we've all known this anyway, it's often the root cause of lower pH in reef tanks. So unless you can factor this in, would the local level of CO2 in the room a reef tank is located throw off the calculation significantly? Say a tank is more often exposed to an average CO2 level of 600 ppm rather than a baseline 350 ppm, seems like it would throw things off quite a bit. And then you have the issue of seasonal CO2 shifts indoors, higher in heating and cooling months, lower in months where windows/doors are open more.

No, it doesn't require any assumptions about the air CO2 level. They measure the CO2 in the water itself, and this is a well established technology, although reasonably expensive, typically.

 

[ReefMadScientist]

Obviously one would keep test kits "just in case" and to check on the unit. Testing 1/month until you trust it is far better than testing every couple of days.

I just think it is funny that the industry is full of people dying to plop 1k down for the newest LED light (which has been proven to work, but also has been proven to nuke your tank if not used correctly), but they wouldnt spare $500 for something as revolutionary as this which runs itself and at worst will do no harm.

I agree with you. Technology is improving all the time, embrace it.

Wait what!? LOL.

Okay I am not going to even comment more on this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, I've been told it is a related technology to this company's sensors, which are very high quality:

http://www.sunburstsensors.com/products/oceanographic-carbon-dioxide-sensor.html

http://www.sunburstsensors.com/products/oceanographic-ph-sensor.html

 

[ReefMadScientist]

FWIW, I've been told it is a related technology to this company's sensors, which are very high quality:

http://www.sunburstsensors.com/products/oceanographic-carbon-dioxide-sensor.html

http://www.sunburstsensors.com/products/oceanographic-ph-sensor.html

Nice! See that is information I would like to know