Mindstream Aquarium Monitor

Greenstreet.1 · Jul 31, 2015

Reefmad right on point.

SaltwaterLee · Jul 31, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
No, it doesn't require any assumptions about the air CO2 level. They measure the CO2 in the water itself, and this is a well established technology, although reasonably expensive, typically.

That makes much better sense, didn't catch that it was CO2 in water not surrounding air. I guess I was so amazed at how fast and much CO2 in a house swings that I wasn't thinking about it fully.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jul 31, 2015

SaltwaterLee said:
That makes much better sense, didn't catch that it was CO2 in water not surrounding air. I guess I was so amazed at how fast and much CO2 in a house swings that I wasn't thinking about it fully.

It swings a lot in the water too. A day to night change in pH of about 0.3 pH units is a doubling of the CO2 level.

reef_ranch · Jul 31, 2015

Randy, I re-read your article on Alkalinity. Could the mind stream be measuring carbonate alkalinity? And if so, would we be safe monitoring and maintaining that as opposed to total alk? Is this better or worse than what we rely on today for alk testing and maintenance? Your article did not discuss all of the common hobby tests, but does conclude that the Hatch kit misses around 10% of the total alk. If that is our margin of error, shouldn't we be happy if the mind stream is very precise for AC even if it is up to 10% off on accuracy?

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jul 31, 2015

acesq said:
Randy, I re-read your article on Alkalinity. Could the mind stream be measuring carbonate alkalinity? And if so, would we be safe monitoring and maintaining that as opposed to total alk? Is this better or worse than what we rely on today for alk testing and maintenance? Your article did not discuss all of the common hobby tests, but does conclude that the Hatch kit misses around 10% of the total alk. If that is our margin of error, shouldn't we be happy if the mind stream is very precise for AC even if it is up to 10% off on accuracy?

Carbonate alkalinity would be what they measure, and is a perfectly fine thing to use for supplementing. It is only a little lower than total alk, and in some ways is better anyway since the amount of borate alkalinity is really unimportant for corals.

What people are happy with of course, depends on their expectations. But peoples expectations seem to rise with the price of a product. IMO, most people rarely need to know alk to greater accuracy than +/-10%, especially if it is always off by about the same amount for a tank at a given temp or salinity.

reef_ranch · Jul 31, 2015

I'd be VERY happy with the same or better accuracy with the same or better precision (judging by the pH reading against the world class instrument, it looks sound like this could be very precise) in a unit that gives me real-time readings. This exchange just took a big load off my mind. Thanks!

NeverlosT · Jul 31, 2015

3 things:

1. Give mindstream a little credit as one of the two guys who incorporated Step Ahead (makers of mindstream) is a PhD Analytical Chemist. Something tells me that he may know a thing or two. Randy has a PhD in chemistry, concentrates on drug development, and is an all around smart fellah. We all value his input as a well educated and experienced chemist, all I'm saying is perhaps extend that courtesy to Step Ahead as well.

2. Reefmadscientist- I am just saying it may be worth a shot. Assumptions are a terrible way to evaluate products like this. Either be patient and wait to see how it works, or have some faith and toss them some support, but don't just sit at the computer trying to think of ways that this might not work. That helps no one.

3. We buy new test kits yearly as well, either they run out or the reagents go bad, so buying a new disc on a monthly basis is not really that far fetched. Hanna instruments measure Alk, CA, and Phos, and cost like $150 bucks for the three, so to get 10 properties for $500 sounds like a pretty logical price (not to mention that those Hanna kits are hard to use while this is automatic).

Randy - that is good to know re measuring the Carbonate Alk and how it applies to reefing vs. total alk. Perhaps we could just shift what we concentrate on since borate Alkalinity is less important?

SaltwaterLee · Jul 31, 2015

NeverlosT said:
3 things:

1. Give mindstream a little credit as one of the two guys who incorporated Step Ahead (makers of mindstream) is a PhD Analytical Chemist. Something tells me that he may know a thing or two. Randy has a PhD in chemistry, concentrates on drug development, and is an all around smart fellah. We all value his input as a well educated and experienced chemist, all I'm saying is perhaps extend that courtesy to Step Ahead as well.

2. Reefmadscientist- I am just saying it may be worth a shot. Assumptions are a terrible way to evaluate products like this. Either be patient and wait to see how it works, or have some faith and toss them some support, but don't just sit at the computer trying to think of ways that this might not work. That helps no one.

3. We buy new test kits yearly as well, either they run out or the reagents go bad, so buying a new disc on a monthly basis is not really that far fetched. Hanna instruments measure Alk, CA, and Phos, and cost like $150 bucks for the three, so to get 10 properties for $500 sounds like a pretty logical price (not to mention that those Hanna kits are hard to use while this is automatic).

Randy - that is good to know re measuring the Carbonate Alk and how it applies to reefing vs. total alk. Perhaps we could just shift what we concentrate on since borate Alkalinity is less important?

I don't have anything derogatory to say about the product, company, or team building the product and hope it works great and they are very successful at it. For me though I'm just not sure it will provide value to me for the projected cost. Based on their KickStarter discussed price ranges (not only the initial Kickstarter price) it would be somewhere between $1420 - $2100 for the first 24 months amortizing the device and supplies, so anywhere from ~$60 to $87.5 a month. So not outrageous, but what do I get that I really care about for that?

For me of the 10 items it potentially monitors I don't really care about many of them, at least not on a continuous basis. I check salinity every time I do a water change with a $60 refractometer I've owned for a decade now and fresh bottle of calibration solution I buy every so often. For temperature I already have that as part of a controller that has the ability to alert me if it falls out of a desired range, as well as kill the power to heater if the temp is too high, or kick on a backup heater if too low. Before I had a controller I had a cheap but accurate glass thermometer in my overflow I checked manually. Potassium, maybe I'm missing something but why do I need to know my potassium level? Ammonia, another one that I probably tested twice when I first set my tank up, but haven't since then. CO2, I guess it affects pH, but other than that do I really need to know the CO2 level of my water? Oxygen? Never tested it yet, not sure if I care or not. Not saying that some of these aren't interesting to some people, just not to me or at least not something I've put any effort into in the past. So for me it boils down to it might be valuable for 3 things; Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium, and as a backup for my regular pH probe on my controller. So how much is it worth to me to monitor these. Well it's not between $1420 and $2100 over two years. That would buy me the best test kits I could care to buy many times over, at least enough to test once or twice a week, alk/ca/mg dosing supplies (following Randy's recipes in bulk), salt for a monthly 50 gallon water change, R/O supplies (membrane, filters, DI resin). And personally I don't mind spending the less than 15 minutes a week it takes doing a few tests as part of my weekly maintenance routine. So for me I like the idea, and if it was a couple hundred dollars for the device and maybe somewhere less than a buck a day I might bite, otherwise to me it's just not worth it. I think I can be as or more successful putting that same money into some of the things I mentioned before in supplies.

scardall · Jul 31, 2015

@SaltwaterLee Thanks I could not have said it better. It's a nice toy but not cost wise at all. It like Cable TV, Having 376 channels and only watching up to 30 of them regularly.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Jul 31, 2015

NeverlosT said:
Randy - that is good to know re measuring the Carbonate Alk and how it applies to reefing vs. total alk. Perhaps we could just shift what we concentrate on since borate Alkalinity is less important?

Yes, that's an appropriate shift anyway, if the technology to measure just carbonate alk becomes available. Seachem's foray into that arena was not very successful, IMO.

Reduck · Aug 1, 2015

I got to say this. Even if the product never makes it to market, this thread is insanely educational. I'm not a chem major (but I stayed at a holiday inn once) and the explainations have been enlightening and informative.
I'm glad there are people here that understand and can intelligently debate this subject whilst providing an education for those of us who can't.

Thank you to the contributing participants for the well thought out questions and answers!

Electrobes · Aug 1, 2015

I did get a response from the company today about the US Beta Tester Pledge. It is as it says, you get the monitor in October for testing, plus three discs, and when the Beta is done you'll get a new monitor should upgrades be added, but not a year's worth of discs. For the reason I switched to the Dec pledge which gives you the retail released monitor plus a year's worth of discs.

Mirya · Aug 1, 2015

The Kickstarter Page FAQ has been updated. There is this note on alkalinity:

WATER PARAMETERS: Are you measuring alkalinity or deducing it from other parameter readings?

The MindStream monitor measures Alkalinity using equations that have been well established and commonly accepted by oceanographic research studies that incorporate CO2, pH, temperature, and salinity as the primary input parameters. This is one of the reasons we have been benchmarking pH and CO2 against extremely accurate marine grade scientific instruments – we want these parameters to be accurate so the Alkalinity measurement will also be accurate.

Last updated: Sat, Aug 1 2015 7:10 AM EDT

And this on nitrate and phosphorus:

WATER PARAMETERS: Will nitrate and phosphate be added to the sensor discs?

We have populated the introductory MindStream monitor discs with sensors that are capable of monitoring what we believe are the most important water parameters for maintaining optimal saltwater tank chemistry. This includes the “Big Three” parameters of Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium. Importantly, we have also included Salinity/TDS, Temperature, and pH because they are critical to maintaining the health of fish and corals. Also, the ability to measure Oxygen and CO2 together are revolutionary because together these two parameters provide important insights into the biological activity and respiration of the livestock in the tank.
We understand that Nitrate is an important parameter to monitor when establishing a new tank or making changes to an existing tank. We have been investing in developing a Nitrate sensor and have achieved very promising results for a Nitrate sensor for freshwater tanks. We believe an accurate Nitrate sensor for saltwater tanks is technically feasible and it is a very high development priority for us. It is possible that our research may not yield a functional Nitrate sensor.
We know that Phosphate is also a key reef tank parameter and it is an important development priority for us as well. However, we anticipate developing a Phosphate sensor that does not use reagent technology will be especially complex and difficult to achieve.

Last updated: Sat, Aug 1 2015 7:10 AM EDT

sonnus · Aug 2, 2015

Mirya said:
The Kickstarter Page FAQ has been updated. There is this note on alkalinity:

And this on nitrate and phosphorus:

Well, that's great news. I was sure I heard this elsewhere but it's great to get it "in writing" finally.

Since the Mindstream is now confirmed to be using pH, CO2, temp and salinity for their alkalinity calculation we should expect it to be plenty accurate enough for our reefing needs. From what is sounds like Mindstream is on track to provide a breakthrough product!

NicksMixedReef · Aug 2, 2015

See that makes me a lot happier to hear

Diesel · Aug 2, 2015

That is good news.
As a backer I still like to know after release if there are enough disc available to the ppl who backed this product.
Again to be successful IMO they need to provide a package deal of one, three, six months supply or a full year of disc.