multi-level plumbing strategy for 500+ gallons

[kvosstra]

Hi folks:
I'm in process of designing plumbing to my 500g display. The tank will be on the first floor and there are essentially three spots for sumps, frag tanks, etc. and I'm working to address those and design the plumbing. So, I'm posting here for thoughts and guidance.

First - a very poor hand scribble of the tank display, and space.
The first spot for a "sump" is below the display - There is 120x36x30 space maybe a bit less or more.
From there, there is a drop of about 5 feet to a sub-basement/crawl space, which has a clean floor. I can easily put in 150g trough tanks or similar in this space.
from there, is about an 18 foot run to the actual basement, which is about another 4 feet down. This space will likely house my quarantine tanks for fish and corals. This will also hold a storage tank for RO/water change, and has other space. I have at least 15x15 of space here, to use.
The question is how to plumb this to maximize my space and to reduce head pressure (read use more efficient pumps) to maintain the system.
I was considering a first sump in the crawl space - using a wet return pump there to main display.
Have a second overflow in this first sump that drains to the lower second sump - where I can then run a frag tank with a small pump _ frag tank is a shallow 48x16x12 box lit by 2 AI primes.

So, does this work?
Where to put ATO float (bottom sump or middle sump?)
Where to add Kalk/2-part/CA reactor, etc?
skimmer (which is external) - and I'd prefer to use gravity feed, if possible (it runs 24/7x365...right!)

first or second sump will likely have some light/fuge for nutrient export, so I'd prefer it to be in the 2nd sump for ease of collection/maintenance.

Thanks in advance...any suggestions are welcomed!

 

[MnFish1]

Hi folks:
I'm in process of designing plumbing to my 500g display. The tank will be on the first floor and there are essentially three spots for sumps, frag tanks, etc. and I'm working to address those and design the plumbing. So, I'm posting here for thoughts and guidance.

First - a very poor hand scribble of the tank display, and space.
The first spot for a "sump" is below the display - There is 120x36x30 space maybe a bit less or more.
From there, there is a drop of about 5 feet to a sub-basement/crawl space, which has a clean floor. I can easily put in 150g trough tanks or similar in this space.
from there, is about an 18 foot run to the actual basement, which is about another 4 feet down. This space will likely house my quarantine tanks for fish and corals. This will also hold a storage tank for RO/water change, and has other space. I have at least 15x15 of space here, to use.
The question is how to plumb this to maximize my space and to reduce head pressure (read use more efficient pumps) to maintain the system.
I was considering a first sump in the crawl space - using a wet return pump there to main display.
Have a second overflow in this first sump that drains to the lower second sump - where I can then run a frag tank with a small pump _ frag tank is a shallow 48x16x12 box lit by 2 AI primes.

So, does this work?
Where to put ATO float (bottom sump or middle sump?)
Where to add Kalk/2-part/CA reactor, etc?
skimmer (which is external) - and I'd prefer to use gravity feed, if possible (it runs 24/7x365...right!)

first or second sump will likely have some light/fuge for nutrient export, so I'd prefer it to be in the 2nd sump for ease of collection/maintenance.

Thanks in advance...any suggestions are welcomed!

Impressive!.. I have to say - I dont understand it at all. It might be the way you drew it - but - I since you wanted comments 'keep it simple' - or in this case 'keep it simpler' - drain your tank to the basement - and have a sump - with whatever configuration/levels/compartments you want - you could have another 500 gallon sump for example. I think you're going to waste a lot of money on heating, pumps, potential leaks etc - with this system (unless im missing something). You will have more evaporation, etc more salt, more humidity, etc. IMHO just drain the tank straight down with an overflow - to the basement (or 2) - have a sump - and pump the water back up. PS - I don't under stand what you mean by the area "below display space". Again not meaning to criticise - you probably have a rationale for doing this - I just don't see it!

 

[kvosstra]

the below display space was simply where a normal sump might fit. Its a big space, and I can easily outfit cabinet doors there to allow for a sump, or to house other gear...or nothing!
I can see that simple is probably a good solution, and reduces the space for error and failure. My basement is pretty stable, temperature wise, actually - but yeah, heating 700+ gallons still sucks!

 

[jdiefenbaugh]

I'm not sure using 2 pumps would be the best option here. If you want to use this multi tiered system, probably best to just use 1 pump to pump back to display. With that much head, you're probably not going to find an efficient pump. For heating, a heat exchanger will be the most efficient, but highest up front cost. With a 500 g display, there aren't a lot of low cost options, or everyone would have one.

 

[Daddy-o]

Pump from the lowest to the highest. From the highest, let them overflow one into another to the lowest. ATO and sump/skimmer on the lowest tank.
Cheers! Mark

 

[kvosstra]

Thanks guys - that's so obvious, once you mention it! At that point, it's just easier to use a single level sump and...that seems like the best thing to do. I can run my frag tank and fuge off of the lower level sump as needed.
I have looked into a heat exchanger with my HVAC guy - but any of you with big tanks, what did you do for heating specifically?

 

[Daddy-o]

My multi-tank system is in my cold garage and I use pipe insulation on all the hoses.

 

[AlexG]

The multi-tier sump system can work and using 2 return pumps opposed two one I would put more in the bucket of redundancy preference as a return pump failure will isolate part of the system and being prepared for that with other methods to keep water circulation with a second return pump or alternate pumps to maintain water movement in all tanks is needed. For ATO put it in the lower sump as it will be the tank that sees the water level drop from evaporation. If you go with a CA reactor I would dump the output into the refugium to give the algae a chance to soak up any remaining CO2. Having run a gravity fed DIY skimmer for 3 years and will be putting the same skimmer on my new system I can attest that it will work and does save you 1 more pump on the system. For heating go with a radiant heating system using a hot water heater or tankless hot water heater. There are several methods out there to do this style of heating. I have been successful with a PEX coil with a double redundant temperature controller.

 

[ca1ore]

Whether you use one pump for all the height or two for half each, you're still pumping up the same total head so not sure that you're going to see any cost/energy savings. I have run sequential height tanks/sumps a few times; sort of do it now. Works fine, but you must ensure drain redundancy and that the very lowest tank can handle all the drain down.

I looked into using my home water heater to heat my tank (nominally 600 gallons). Even went as far as buying some equipment from an aquarium vendor. Epic fail, and I will never do business with that vendor again certainly. Unclear whether I would have saved any $$; frankly my system is mostly acrylic which insulates well and I run less heating wattage that one would expect.

 

[kvosstra]

I have been working out logistics for my skimmer for gravity feeding - a certain individual on this forum with some large tanks - has been super helpful in thinking that part through and the obvious cost savings of that pump running 24x7 as well.

My challenges are new here, as I was previously in menlo park in the bay area (Hey Daddy-o), and now having cold winters and hot summers is a new challenge. Right now, I can heat/cool my basement with one of my HVAC units, and I'm debating on how to most effectively use that system with this tank. I'm sure it will be north of 700 gallons once all said and done, and, I know there are costs (obviously), but still keeping them reasonable and efficient remains a goal, just on principle.

I will get to a new sketch soon, once I have a better plan on layout with this info... but my thought would be to drain from main display to Skimmer and to bottom level sump (300g tank, most likely) - from that tank, I can run a small pump to my frag tank and also to any additional fuge tanks, if I have something outside of the 300g sump. I'll probably run a manifold off of either the display drain or the frag pump to the remaining parts, like the CA RX and other media chambers as necessary.

Drain line from the sump will allow me to auto change out water from a 50g reservoir, and ATO will be separate reservoir. I will probably run Kalk and the CA Rx to keep up with demands, so I'll have to program in the Kalk based on demands and pH considerations.

Anyway, foundation supports being done next week (finally, after 8 weeks of delays), despite the several snow and ice storms - and hopefully I can really start on the process of tank install in the next few weeks after that!

 

[jdiefenbaugh]

I have looked into a heat exchanger with my HVAC guy - but any of you with big tanks, what did you do for heating specifically?

I run a heat exchanger on my 300, and it is extremely efficient. The main reason I went this route was not totally for the efficiency, but in case of power outages, I am still able to maintain all equipment (minus my lighting) off a UPS battery backup, at under 300 total watts. A conventional 600-1K w heater would drain down very quickly. I also used heat exchangers when I worked at a public aquarium on basically every exhibit. Pentair makes a quality unit, but expect to spend around $1200-1500 when all said and done (Hx, recirculation pump and plumbing parts).

 

[FishTruck]

So, does this work?

Where to put ATO float (bottom sump or middle sump?) - The lowest point is your sump. Everything else is a tank. Your main circulation pump comes out of the sump and everything else drains back there. The ATO is in your sump.

Where to add Kalk/2-part/CA reactor, etc? Either the sump or your utility tanks.


skimmer (which is external) - and I'd prefer to use gravity feed, if possible (it runs 24/7x365...right!) Forget Gravity feeding your skimmer. It's a PITA to keep the water level stable.

first or second sump will likely have some light/fuge for nutrient export, so I'd prefer it to be in the 2nd sump for ease of collection/maintenance. Good. Keep the sump dark and your probes etc... should be here. No algae growing on probes will help you.

Thanks in advance...any suggestions are welcomed!