My Dinoflagellate Experience - Prorocentrum

[JayinToronto]

Wow, you have a big tank! If I read the original post correctly, you have about a 400 gallon tank and 126 watts of UV. Also, your UV is plumbed from the sump. You referenced the big dino thread as well. After reading that thread, and others as well (and some personal experiences unfortunately), it seems that you increase your chances of wiping these suckers out if you plumbed your UV to and from your display tank. Your UV sizing seems to be on that cusp of 1 watt per every 3 gallons of water that seems to be the minimum effective size as well. Have you tried going to and from DT?

Thanks for the post. It does make sense to go from DT to DT with my UV. At one point I also had a UV running a loop in my sump. In the future if things start to go backwards again I would probably add a dedicated DT UV.

When doing some maintenance the other day I noticed one of my Ecotech MP40 wet sides was rusting. I think this has possibly been contributing to the dinos (I've seen a few posts where people believe this to be true. It also explains why blooms are often associated with rowaphos or other iron based medium). But I'm not certain.

 

[JayinToronto]

Did you dose Microbacter 7 for your sand bed issue ? I didn’t see if you did or not..

Last summer when this all started I did. Might not be a bad idea to add another bottle or 2.
I've also kept water changes to an absolute minimum during this time and thus haven't vacuumed my sand for about 8 months now. I'm not sure ultimately how I feel about that. On one hand it's a pretty deep sand bed and I don't want to disturb whatever good stuff is growing in it. On the other hand I know from past experience that it's absolutely full of waste.

 

[Marc2952]

I eliminated my dinos after 1 month and everything was going well until i did a water change. I used fluconazole to treat for a bad bryopsis that i had thanks to dosing so much phosphate. Well just 2 days after a 20% water change and dinos are all over the sand. Now im back at it again this time i wont do a water change for a couple of months since they seem to love that even after treating the tank. I also noticed that 2 part dosing qith esv b-ionic seems to bring them up a bit since it has some trace elements. Dropping phosphates below 0.10 seems to bring them back too.

 

[b4tn]

Any luck? Pretty sure I have the same prorocentrum.

 

[taricha]

Any luck? Pretty sure I have the same prorocentrum.

amphidinium, actually.

 

[JayinToronto]

Just wanted to give an update.

I've been Dino free for some time now. Which is such a huge win. My biggest ongoing problem is with nutrient and phosphate levels. I'm finding that without using any rowaphos as well as trying to maintain a 0.1 phosphate level that I'm constantly fighting with red slime and some other algae. Though a welcome trade to the Dino hell I was going through. I seem to yoyo between 0.1 and 0.2 on the phosphates. In my sump I can't grow chaeto as it just gets overwhelmed with slime (hair algae) so I just let that grow and use that as my sump nutrient export. I also skim a lot harder than I used to as I'm trying to optimize my skimmer for nutrient export. My corals aren't that happy and growth of everything except some nuisance polyps seems to be a struggle with this higher nutrient situation.

My fish are all happy and thriving.

-J

 

[ScottB]

Just wanted to give an update.

I've been Dino free for some time now. Which is such a huge win. My biggest ongoing problem is with nutrient and phosphate levels. I'm finding that without using any rowaphos as well as trying to maintain a 0.1 phosphate level that I'm constantly fighting with red slime and some other algae. Though a welcome trade to the Dino hell I was going through. I seem to yoyo between 0.1 and 0.2 on the phosphates. In my sump I can't grow chaeto as it just gets overwhelmed with slime (hair algae) so I just let that grow and use that as my sump nutrient export. I also skim a lot harder than I used to as I'm trying to optimize my skimmer for nutrient export. My corals aren't that happy and growth of everything except some nuisance polyps seems to be a struggle with this higher nutrient situation.

My fish are all happy and thriving.

-J

Good to hear you are clear of dinos now. The red slime is a common transition competitor. Don't fall for the Chemiclean snake oil. Your system just needs to find it's happy spot of NO3 versus PO4. My experience anyway.

Iron deficiency is a common limiting factor with chaeto. Or not enough flow. Maybe an ICP is in order. I found dinos depleted my system of potassium, Iodine and another trace or two. Skipping WCs for a couple months didn't help with that of course.

 

[JayinToronto]

Here’s a tank pic

 

[JayinToronto]

Good to hear you are clear of dinos now. The red slime is a common transition competitor. Don't fall for the Chemiclean snake oil. Your system just needs to find it's happy spot of NO3 versus PO4. My experience anyway.

Iron deficiency is a common limiting factor with chaeto. Or not enough flow. Maybe an ICP is in order. I found dinos depleted my system of potassium, Iodine and another trace or two. Skipping WCs for a couple months didn't help with that of course.

Thanks for the advise. Over the last year or so I’ve really limited my water changes, so I definitely could be deplete on those trace elements.
And yea, I’m definitely not going to be doing anything drastic like chemiclean ever again. Slow change and patience is my game now. Maybe I will start a regular water change schedule again for the trace elements.

 

[taricha]

And yea, I’m definitely not going to be doing anything drastic like chemiclean ever again. Slow change and patience is my game now. Maybe I will start a regular water change schedule again for the trace elements.

Agreed. Most sensible step, imo.
As scott says, the dino battle (intentionally) depletes trace elements. Replacing carefully should help chaeto step up.

 

[JayinToronto]

Sending off a Triton ICP test. Really haven't done water changes in the last year outside of the odd 10% for different project like cleaning my sand now and then. Curious what it will show.

 

[JayinToronto]

I also would like to test my microbiome but alas this test is not available from Canada yet.

Maybe for the best. Might just give me another number to chase.

 

[JayinToronto]

Did you dose Microbacter 7 for your sand bed issue ? I didn’t see if you did or not..

Going back to this post after reading all the recent work done by @taricha I'm not really sure any of these bacterial additives are actually of any use......

Looking for the Magic in Bottled Bacteria (and in our tanks)

The purpose of this thread is to try to measure and understand how bottled bacteria might work in our tanks. Not the cyclers / nitrifiers - that's well covered here (bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact). I'm talking about the bacteria that are meant to help with digestion and breakdown of food...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[taricha]

Going back to this post after reading all the recent work done by @taricha I'm not really sure any of these bacterial additives are actually of any use......

Looking for the Magic in Bottled Bacteria (and in our tanks)

The purpose of this thread is to try to measure and understand how bottled bacteria might work in our tanks. Not the cyclers / nitrifiers - that's well covered here (bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact). I'm talking about the bacteria that are meant to help with digestion and breakdown of food...

www.reef2reef.com

Appreciate the complement. I would hedge or frame my conclusions a bit in the following way.

There are many who find bottle bac products meant to break down organics help them with nuisance algae, more than I think placebo effect can explain.
Yet, it is very very difficult to show that these bacteria do something different or better than what bacteria from tank water can do.
A few ideas that might explain this:
Maybe the media contains enzymes etc that help break down tough material better.
Maybe the media contains carbon sources that feed native aquarium bacteria (this part is demonstrably true for at least some products) in a positive way.
Maybe the "grunge-eating" bottle bac blends that are most successful for hobbyists actually contain nitrifiers (tank cycling bacteria) that rapidly process ammonia as it's being produced from the normal breakdown of organics, thus denying an optimal N-source. Nitrifying bacteria from a bottle are rock-solid, fool proof, immediately active, and can chew through ammonia much faster than the nitrifying population in an established tank. All the things that the spores of "grunge eater" bacteria aren't.

The products don't claim this, so I didn't test the nitrification abilities of "grunge eaters". I focused my tests on the heterotrophic abilities of the bacteria from the bottles.

 

[JayinToronto]

Appreciate the complement. I would hedge or frame my conclusions a bit in the following way.

There are many who find bottle bac products meant to break down organics help them with nuisance algae, more than I think placebo effect can explain.
Yet, it is very very difficult to show that these bacteria do something different or better than what bacteria from tank water can do.
A few ideas that might explain this:
Maybe the media contains enzymes etc that help break down tough material better.
Maybe the media contains carbon sources that feed native aquarium bacteria (this part is demonstrably true for at least some products) in a positive way.
Maybe the "grunge-eating" bottle bac blends that are most successful for hobbyists actually contain nitrifiers (tank cycling bacteria) that rapidly process ammonia as it's being produced from the normal breakdown of organics, thus denying an optimal N-source. Nitrifying bacteria from a bottle are rock-solid, fool proof, immediately active, and can chew through ammonia much faster than the nitrifying population in an established tank. All the things that the spores of "grunge eater" bacteria aren't.

The products don't claim this, so I didn't test the nitrification abilities of "grunge eaters". I focused my tests on the heterotrophic abilities of the bacteria from the bottles.

All that makes sense. I'm finding myself going down quite the bacteria rabbit hole right now. Who knows how much the Dino outbreak threw off the whole system and how long it's going to take to come back. Did it wipe out any species completely? Is it necessary to replenish the system or will just what needs to grow grow? It seems to me that all the companies could be a lot more transparent with what's in their bottle. From all my recent reading I don't think adding bacteria from a bottle will change the overall bac concentration, but it may increase the biodiversity. Though trying to manipulate those things can be a tricky game, as we see with the human body.
As for your comment that maybe the media contains enzymes..... that's a whole other rabbit hole altogether! There never seems to be an end in this hobby.

 

[taricha]

a couple of points to add to your good thoughts here.
First, read aquabiomics articles here and on their site. Will answer a lot of questions, and you'll find it super interesting.
also, my speculation that Nitrifiers might offer some benefit in competing with nuisance growth for ammonia, is the opposite of the consensus view on this question. Maybe the consensus is overstated. Just felt like I should point out that it's not a widely held notion.
Lastly, barely done any tests with products that have enzymes, but when I did test, I did not see the hoped for effect - increased digestion of organic material.
So if the bottles help people great, but I don't have a scientifically supported answer why, I was just speculating some possible reasons. And the manufacturers haven't provided data either.

 

[JayinToronto]

For the most part everything is going well. I still get the odd patch of cyano that I just suction out with my weekly 8% water changes.
This past week I have noticed a couple patches on my glass where there is a deep rust covering the coraline algae (see pic below). Concerned I got out the microscope. These are what are what I found. They don’t look like my original proprecentrium Dino. Any thoughts to what it could be? I may post this in the main Dino thread as well.

 

[dwest]

I think the first one is a diatom. Maybe both.

 

[JayinToronto]

I think the first one is a diatom. Maybe both.

Looked up some pics. I think you are right. It does make sense. I was at the end of my RO units life + I accidentally filled up my water top off with warm water through the RO unit (which I’m told is bad for the membranes and probably released a bunch of crap). Probably just dumped a bunch of silicates into the system.

I changed my RO filters and have been looking at adding a deionizing chamber as my TDS still read 7 after the change (they have never been zero). I have a pretty strong sponge population in the system. I’m sure the diatoms will just burn themselves out once the silicates are used up (fingers crossed).

 

[dwest]

Looked up some pics. I think you are right. It does make sense. I was at the end of my RO units life + I accidentally filled up my water top off with warm water through the RO unit (which I’m told is bad for the membranes and probably released a bunch of crap). Probably just dumped a bunch of silicates into the system.

I changed my RO filters and have been looking at adding a deionizing chamber as my TDS still read 7 after the change (they have never been zero). I have a pretty strong sponge population in the system. I’m sure the diatoms will just burn themselves out once the silicates are used up (fingers crossed).

Diatoms are good in my book, at least compared to dinos . I would try to get zero TDS however. Mostly to remove things that we don’t measure.

I am a fan of Spectrapure systems. A double DI that piggybacks after the RO would be great. More $$ up front, but lower total operating costs IME.

Good luck.