My first ICP to try and diagnose a crash

[banik]

Four months after finishing my cycle, I had something sweep through my tank and kill about 80% of my corals. All of my parameters were normal throughout the process. None of my equipment was a problem and there was no stray voltage. One of my diagnostic avenues was ICP and I just got my results back. There are two red lines, and I'm not sure how important they are. So here I am. What do you fine folks think?

https://lab.atiaquaristik.com/share/8d5d61918c862d1bf556

 

[Patx]

Dosing schedule ?

 

[banik]

Dosing schedule ?

3ml Tropic Marin AFR daily to maintain ~8.4 dKH.

Adding in iodine per recommendation once it arrives.

 

[Patx]

3ml Tropic Marin AFR daily to maintain ~8.4 dKH.

Adding in iodine per recommendation once it arrives.

I don't see something that can kill 80% of coral in your ICP.

 

[Tired]

What corals died, and what lived?

 

[banik]

What corals died, and what lived?

Shrimp fine, no fish. Euphyllia (hammers, frog, octo) all dead, mushrooms and zoas are unhappy but not dead, platygyra dead, symphillia dead, fungia 3 of 4 dead, acan lords unhappy 4 of 12 dead, trumpet dead, chalices dead, micromussas dead, Japanese weeping toadstool leathers dead.

Mushrooms are alive but generally unhappy. Zoas are starting to open back up. Acans are unhappy but starting to extending feeders.

 

[Pod_01]

Can you show pictures of the tank? I find Zoas temperamental, for me they melt when I sneeze!!!
I don’t suspect secret killer if zoas did not melt….

Looking at your ICP I would increase the Iodine. From my experience I find when Iodine is at acceptable level the corals/polyp extension are better.

The other value I would work on is PO4, at 0.04 you are borderline especially on a new tank. Corals do need P/PO4 and your value suggests there is not enough. If you had established tank or live rock you can get away with 0.04. I would aim at 0.1, increase feeding fish or use good quality coral food.
Don’t use PO4 absorbers.
If corals don’t have enough building blocks they starve and LPS can take months to show this.

Also carbon dosing can help, not for nutrition control but to feed bacteria and corals can feed on the bacteria. I use TM NP Bacto Ballance at 0.4 ml per 50 gal.

Your K is elevated, that is odd since as far as I know AFR has none. I like to keep my level below calcium value. Did you dose it?

Elevated Ba suggest use of activated carbon. If that is the case try different brand, tumble it less or soak the activated carbon in RO water for few hours before use. The value should come down with water changes. I don’t think your value is a problem.


Good luck,

 

[Patx]

Light ?

 

[banik]

Light ?

ReefLED50 that came with the max nano penninsula. 40% blue, 30% white.

Can you show pictures of the tank? I find Zoas temperamental, for me they melt when I sneeze!!!
I don’t suspect secret killer if zoas did not melt….

Looking at your ICP I would increase the Iodine. From my experience I find when Iodine is at acceptable level the corals/polyp extension are better.

The other value I would work on is PO4, at 0.04 you are borderline especially on a new tank. Corals do need P/PO4 and your value suggests there is not enough. If you had established tank or live rock you can get away with 0.04. I would aim at 0.1, increase feeding fish or use good quality coral food.
Don’t use PO4 absorbers.
If corals don’t have enough building blocks they starve and LPS can take months to show this.

Also carbon dosing can help, not for nutrition control but to feed bacteria and corals can feed on the bacteria. I use TM NP Bacto Ballance at 0.4 ml per 50 gal.

Your K is elevated, that is odd since as far as I know AFR has none. I like to keep my level below calcium value. Did you dose it?

Elevated Ba suggest use of activated carbon. If that is the case try different brand, tumble it less or soak the activated carbon in RO water for few hours before use. The value should come down with water changes. I don’t think your value is a problem.


Good luck,

I will be dosing iodine lightly going forward and crosschecking levels with ICP.

I do not use PO4 absorbers. I've been feeding lightly recently just for the two shrimp while leaving it fallow. I'll kick it up a bit.

I do not dose K, literally the only stuff that would go in the tank is RODI water, AFR, and food.

I was running carbon for a while since the cause of the issue wasn't clear. I had a toadstool, I thought maybe it could be contributing to the problem because it was releasing toxins due to being unhappy, thanks for the direction.

Photos over the past few weeks attached. I think they're even in progression order...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Before I even look at the ICP, let me say that folks looking for the cause of a crash often do not find it by ICP, and the recommendation to look there seems more of a "good idea" than something that usually pans out.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

OK, looking at it now I do not see a reason in it for a tank crash.

A few recommendations:

Aluminum is pretty high, and if you are using white media of any sort, I 'd consider removing it.

You might consider trying a trace element mix such as Tropic Marin A and K.

 

[Pod_01]

You might consider trying a trace element mix such as Tropic Marin A and K.

He is dosing AFR that has TM A and K….

Question, the ICP shows elevated K 440. Is it possible to increase K without dosing it?
I have not experienced having K above Calcium. I don’t think it is a cause just seems wrong/odd.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

He is dosing AFR that has TM A and K….

Question, the ICP shows elevated K 440. Is it possible to increase K without dosing it?

Nevertheless, many values are still low, if the numbers are accurate.

 

[Patx]

@Pod_01
TM A/K very low portion in AFR
Depend of the AFR dose...but...

 

[Pod_01]

Photos over the past few weeks attached. I think they're even in progression order..

From the picture I would say things are bit on the clean side, just my opinion.
Corals and algae generally require the same environment and one tends to outgrow/ outcompete the other. Looking at the picture it seems both are struggling so I suspect because there are no fish some of the building blocks are missing. For example fish poop is great food/ fertilizer for corals.

Here are some of my LPS like 5 minutes ago:

They should be all puffed up.

What is not covered by corals has been claimed by algae. I am still building the coral mass.

In addition to what Randy mentioned I would try to get the PO4 up. You can try coral foods or you can experiment with TM Phos Start/Phos feed (their new products that may help in your case).

Adding snail may help as well.
Fish and feeding fish is the best in my opinion.

 

[Patx]

3ml Tropic Marin AFR daily to maintain ~8.4 dKH.

ReefLED50 that came with the max nano penninsula. 40% blue, 30% white.

So, you are dosing 3ml AFR/day in 20ish gallons.
Nothing else ?

 

[banik]

From the picture I would say things are bit on the clean side, just my opinion.
Corals and algae generally require the same environment and one tends to outgrow/ outcompete the other. Looking at the picture it seems both are struggling so I suspect because there are no fish some of the building blocks are missing. For example fish poop is great food/ fertilizer for corals.

Here are some of my LPS like 5 minutes ago:



They should be all puffed up.

What is not covered by corals has been claimed by algae. I am still building the coral mass.

In addition to what Randy mentioned I would try to get the PO4 up. You can try coral foods or you can experiment with TM Phos Start/Phos feed (their new products that may help in your case).

Adding snail may help as well.
Fish and feeding fish is the best in my opinion.

Thanks for the response and the pictures. All the photos I attached previously were after the problem started. Here are two before problems started. I plan to add fish after I complete the ich fallow period here in a week or so. I have a few snails and hermits in addition to the cleaner and peppermint shrimp that are currently kings of the tank.

So, you are dosing 3ml AFR/day in 20ish gallons.
Nothing else ?

No, I was wrong and I blame lack of sleep - I dose 4.6ml daily, which is 3 minutes of run time for my dosing pump.

 

[Patx]

No, I was wrong and I blame lack of sleep - I dose 4.6ml daily, which is 3 minutes of run time for my dosing pump.

Ok, that's doesn't change "the thing" that much.
I just try to find something or help others to maybe find the problem.

I see...
Very unhappy coral.
Icp (water/parameters) ok
Light probably ok, i supposed that coral was always doing ok/good in this tank...

What change ?
Filtration ?

How many Peppermint shrimp in there ?
They don't "play" whit your coral.

Its nights and days...

 

[banik]

I just wanted to update the thread. After treating the tank with a combination of Cipro and amoxicillin every other day for a week, my test octospawn from the LFS is happy, my acans are starting to recover, and my mushrooms still look unhappy but aren't getting worse.

My plan is to leave everything for a couple weeks and start restocking. I'm also going to be militant about KFC and reef primer plus QT for anything coming into the tank (as appropriate for the species). I also have a UV sterilizer to plumb in.

My theory is that it was a rampant bacterial infection.

Thanks for opinions everyone.

 

[jda]

Many people who treat with cipro and amox have the same issues come back in time. Since the stuff only usually kills what is already in the corals or tank, there is no strange, dangerous pathogen that gets wiped out. The effect will likely only be temporary. I would still continue to look for the root cause.

If there were some kind of unknown pathogen, you also likely did not get it all with the cipro and amox and it will rebound too - don't worry about this since it the chances are slim to none and slim just walked out of the door.

New tanks can be hard. You likely will never know what really happened.