My Green Slimer went from this...... To this..... PICS--Acro Help Please

[Young Frankenstein]

Also forgot to mention, I also have a green slimmer directly under a 400w mh and it loves the light

 

[FaviaFreak]

Some comments--

It sounds like a nutrient & high light issue............more the light.

Macro algae like what you have & bubble aglae can thrive in low nutrients because the hair algae is minimal.......the macro has nothing to compete with. Macro algaes can actually grow more once hair algae dies off.

On par..................they mean little when measuring LED' to some extent. The main reason is the narrow spectrum each LED diode has. Each diode is putting out 100% of a specturm that the coral can absorb. With metal halides or T5's they are what we call full spectrum or multiple spectrums, so the bulb is putting out blue, green, red, ect. Even though the par may be the same as a 250w bulb the coral only absorbs the spectrum it can use & reflects the rest of what the bulb gives out..........so a coral may only be taking in 50% of a 500par bulb. With the LED diode...........the coral is taking in 100% of what the diode puts out, so at the same par it's absorbing twice as much light..........that's why people burned their corals.

It does depend on what spectrum each coral absorbs............the slimer most likely is absorbing more of the light than say your tri color. The tri color is likely reflecting more of the two specturms your LEDs put out so it's fine whereas the slimer is hurting.

You did mention the slimer polyps are opening in the shaded area whereas they are closed under the full light, which again tells me it's a light issue.

As someone mentioned photo inhibition isn't the same as bleaching..........it happens more slowly. Think about it this way...........the coral gets damaged by the high light..............it puts all it's energy into trying to mend itself & the next day it get hammmerd again. It never has any energy left to grow, so it's just treading water..........over time it loses the battle & starts dying off.

great points you make here and I agree, even though I don't know this fellow reefers tank I can tell by how the coral looks that it is a light issue more so with the low nutrients causing extra stress, I am 100% convinced, the way that coral looks is a classic symptom, people don't realize that you can give sps too much light, some acros are more forgiving that others that's why his other corals don't show signs yet

 

[WesF]

Looks like it doesn't like your light.

I have some acros that didn't like LED light in the frag time. I put the MH fixture back on and they colored back up.

 

[JDK]

Great info thank you. I had read how par measurements and LEDs are not accurate especially on the blues. I will lower the light a little more. I should have explained better about the polyps. The slimer polyps are not really openly at all. When polyps do come out it is only in the tips really. There is another coral next to the slimer (2nd pic first post) that only opens its polyps in the shaded areas. But your theory still rings true it just is not the slimer which is doing that. THanks

Some comments--

It sounds like a nutrient & high light issue............more the light.

Macro algae like what you have & bubble aglae can thrive in low nutrients because the hair algae is minimal.......the macro has nothing to compete with. Macro algaes can actually grow more once hair algae dies off.

On par..................they mean little when measuring LED' to some extent. The main reason is the narrow spectrum each LED diode has. Each diode is putting out 100% of a specturm that the coral can absorb. With metal halides or T5's they are what we call full spectrum or multiple spectrums, so the bulb is putting out blue, green, red, ect. Even though the par may be the same as a 250w bulb the coral only absorbs the spectrum it can use & reflects the rest of what the bulb gives out..........so a coral may only be taking in 50% of a 500par bulb. With the LED diode...........the coral is taking in 100% of what the diode puts out, so at the same par it's absorbing twice as much light..........that's why people burned their corals.

It does depend on what spectrum each coral absorbs............the slimer most likely is absorbing more of the light than say your tri color. The tri color is likely reflecting more of the two specturms your LEDs put out so it's fine whereas the slimer is hurting.

You did mention the slimer polyps are opening in the shaded area whereas they are closed under the full light, which again tells me it's a light issue.

As someone mentioned photo inhibition isn't the same as bleaching..........it happens more slowly. Think about it this way...........the coral gets damaged by the high light..............it puts all it's energy into trying to mend itself & the next day it get hammmerd again. It never has any energy left to grow, so it's just treading water..........over time it loses the battle & starts dying off.

 

[JDK]

Picked up some trace elements that contain iron. I will add and see what happens. I really do not feel like I have time to take months to pinpoint the problem. While that may be optimal I am afraid I will start losing corals if action is not taken. I am going to attack both issues- 1. Low Nutrients/Trace elements 2. Lighting

Just like everything else that’s talked about I am still a firm believer is a iron problem, I would at least try dosing minor amounts of iron and see if it helps. If you are trying to pinpoint the reason for the instant change you will have a hard time doing that because all said, you did not make any drastic change like changing light fixtures or changing your dosing habits.

 

[JDK]

great points you make here and I agree, even though I don't know this fellow reefers tank I can tell by how the coral looks that it is a light issue more so with the low nutrients causing extra stress, I am 100% convinced, the way that coral looks is a classic symptom, people don't realize that you can give sps too much light, some acros are more forgiving that others that's why his other corals don't show signs yet

I have been reading tons and an interesting thing was mentioned. Apparently many reefers see a correlation between nutrients and lighting. When lighting is strong and nutrients are very low the combination is bad. Without proper amounts of nutrients the strength of the lighting is compounded. Anyone hear this before? Seemed like some reputable reefers in the discussion. I will lower my lights a little more while I up the feedings. Then if things respond raise the %s slowly over time til I find a sweet spot. Thanks for all your help guys. I will update this thread to hopefully help others with the same problem.

 

[JDK]

Another thing you can try is to use different optics. Maybe spread the light more over the center of the tank so that corals aren't getting a direct hit of all the light. That may be a better option than just dimming or raising your lights for a long term solution.
.

The AI Nano LED is all 70' optics. Not a mix of 40s and 70s like the AI sol. Not sure if AI offers anything higher than 70 but I dont think so.

 

[Big E]

have been reading tons and an interesting thing was mentioned. Apparently many reefers see a correlation between nutrients and lighting. When lighting is strong and nutrients are very low the combination is bad.

That's basically what I was saying earlier.............for a better lack of words, there's hardly any zoo in corals when they get that pastel look............they can defeinately be damaged more easily by high light.

I wouldn't change anything more than adding more food & raising or dimming the lights. Once things get better you'll probably have to tweek things to get the colors you want.

Why don't you hack off a frag of the slimer & move it to a lower location..............this may give you a faster indication of how the light is affecting it.

 

[JDK]

Update: My torch coral which has been in the tank for the longest looks like it is dying. It was in the process of splitting into 2 heads and it looks like one of them is a gonner. All deflated and flesh hanging off. No clue how this could be related or if it is just a coincidence. Also my coralline bleaching looks worse than it was last week. Just the centers of the coralline turn white while the outer rims remain purple. Lights have been down for a few days and I can already see the encrusting base of the Garf Bonsai losing color (brownish not pale). It is directly under the light fixture. Also the 3 sps frags I added last week from the swap all are in the bottom 1/3 of the tank being acclimated. All three have good polyp extension and color. Plan on moving them up soon. Not as worried now that the lights have been lowered.

I wouldn't change anything more than adding more food & raising or dimming the lights. Once things get better you'll probably have to tweek things to get the colors you want.

That is exactly my plan. I have been feeding once/twice a day in small amounts. Gonna skip todays water change as well. But should I leave the GFO reactor runnning or turn it off?

Why don't you hack off a frag of the slimer & move it to a lower location..............this may give you a faster indication of how the light is affecting it.

Thats a good idea. I was gonna do that last week but it seemed so stressed I was afraid I would kill it by stressing it out even more

 

[MattL22]

To jdk your tank does seem very clean r u carbon dosing in any way?? I've run into issues a few times when I try to run ulns and my alk isn't very steady not going above 8 ! Try lowering ur alk to 7-8 for few weeks and keep it steady I saw u run dosers so that should just take a little tweaking I'd also feed oyster feast or something 2-3 times a week

 

[JDK]

To jdk your tank does seem very clean r u carbon dosing in any way?? I've run into issues a few times when I try to run ulns and my alk isn't very steady not going above 8 ! Try lowering ur alk to 7-8 for few weeks and keep it steady I saw u run dosers so that should just take a little tweaking I'd also feed oyster feast or something 2-3 times a week

I do not carbon dose. My alk runs about 9 dkh. I have upped the feeding. Aminos are on their way and plan on getting some oyster feast. Fed some coral frenzy the other night after lights went off. Never thought of lowering the alk that may be a good idea. If I dont see a response from the upped feedings in the next couple weeks I may do that. The loss of PE is what is baffling me. About a month ago its like someone flipped a switch.

 

[JDK]

Gonna throw up some pics to keep track of the progress and better explain what is going on. Hopefully this will help:

-Blue mille which had amazing PE up until about a month or so ago. Now it has literally ZERO
-Garf Bonsai base turned brown just in the past few days maybe from lowering the light %s?
-Green Slimer faded colors and 90% loss of PE

-Shot of the Orange Crush Acro. Still has good PE not reduced at all. Only this frag and the Jason Fox unknown have kept their PE.
-Epic Chaos Frag is the bubble shaped acro that is teal. After looking at past picture the colors do look a little faded just not as bad as the slimer. This Acro used to have amazing PE all the time now It seems like polyps only extend in the shaded areas.
-Another shot of the blue mille with ZERO PE. Used to be amazing PE
-Seasons Greetings Monti in background. Color is ok but definately not as bright as when I got it. Growth is steady. Came from WWC

Another shot of the Epic Chaos frag. Pe appears a little better since I upped the feedings a few days ago but still primarily extending in the shaded areas.

Torch head dying- was in the process of splitting. This happened in the past week.

-Algae/cyano growing on back wall
-Purple Coralline on backwall turned white

 

[JDK]

Coralline turning white- hard to tell from pics

-Frags added June 2nd
-Pink Lemonade/Tyree Rainbow Stylo/Atlantis Superman Mille
-All have good/same color and Great PE since I put them in tank 2 1/2 weeks ago
-Currently sitting on bottom 1/3 of tank a little off to the side from dead center of light

 

[JDK]

Red Turf Algae on Clam Shell (came into tank from clam. Hermits ate it all but now its back)

Red Turf on Orange Crush acro frag plug (spread from clam and got up here somehow)

 

[robert]

I also think its a nutrient issue - specifically nitrogen. Cyano can grow by fixing N2 gas from the water - your corals can't do this. The presence of other algaes mean little if the are not actively growing.

I also can believe that your corals are photo inhibited - with nothing to feed the zoox - the zoox can't produce the nutrients for the corals to protect themselves. This too is from starvation - not too much light.

Do not feed the corals oyster feast or anything else like that. You'll only end up feeding bacteria which will compete for the little available nitrogen. Yes corals do eat - but it is not enough to sustain them. The zoox inside the corals is what you want to feed. They get carbon from the carbonate/co2 in the water - not from food. You've got phosphate - or you wouldn't be growing cyano. They need nitrogen. The best source is fish. They excrete ammonia through their gills and depending on the fish, their urine. That's what corals feed to the zoox.

Dim the light by about half - add a number of damsels- chromis if you prefer - the more the better. Six or more. Feed the fish. You can scrape and remove that cyano if you want - but don't worry about how clean things look - as long stuff doesn't start growing on the corals themselves, you can fix that later. Keep the GFO. Do small water changes if the nitrates get over 10. Every day bring the light up a little but take your time. It won't fix itself overnight.

 

[JDK]

I also think its a nutrient issue - specifically nitrogen. Cyano can grow by fixing N2 gas from the water - your corals can't do this. The presence of other algaes mean little if the are not actively growing.

This is starting to make more sense to me. I originally started running GFO and did a one week "refresh" and "waste-away" to rid the cyano growing on my rocks, sand and wall. This was a couple months ago. It worked really well and got rid of the cyano but I believe it also increased the bacteria which is eating up all the nutrients in the tank. The only algae that is "actively" growing is the Dictyota that I posted the other day. It is definately spreading and have read some horror stories online about it. However "algaefix" seems to be a very common and easy way to get rid of the Dictyota. Could the Dictyota be eating up the available nitrogen and contributing to the corals being starved? Should I use some algae-fix now or wait til I get everything else under control?

I also can believe that your corals are photo inhibited - with nothing to feed the zoox - the zoox can't produce the nutrients for the corals to protect themselves. This too is from starvation - not too much light.

Sounds good- I found this while reading and reading about photoinhibition the past couple nights thought is was spot on to my tank with no nutrients-
"When a coral gets too much light, it will constrict its tissue to prevent an overproduction of food(I think it is glucose and/or other sugars or nutrients) from the zooxanthellate. Like anything, too much of one thing is bad. The zooxanthellate produces an excess of sugar which then feeds the coral. If the coral did not constrict its tissue, it would either swell to the point of tearing, or bubbles could be produced, especially in LPS corals like brain corals. So to prevent this from happening, the coral tissue will actually shrink. If it is an acropora, you will notice the tissue kind of sucked tight to the skeleton." -jmuzzey

This is exactly how my corals look. Very "thin skin" so to speak. The slimer used to be thicker and would slime if something touched it. Now it looks sunk in and dried out.

Do not feed the corals oyster feast or anything else like that. You'll only end up feeding bacteria which will compete for the little available nitrogen. Yes corals do eat - but it is not enough to sustain them. The zoox inside the corals is what you want to feed. They get carbon from the carbonate/co2 in the water - not from food. You've got phosphate - or you wouldn't be growing cyano. They need nitrogen. The best source is fish. They excrete ammonia through their gills and depending on the fish, their urine. That's what corals feed to the zoox.

That makes sense. I broadcast fed some "coral frenzy" last night but that only seems to create brown film on my glass instantly. I see so many successful SPS tanks that feed nothing other than fish poo/pee. I was always just worried about cramming fish in my small tank.

Dim the light by about half - add a number of damsels- chromis if you prefer - the more the better. Six or more. Feed the fish. You can scrape and remove that cyano if you want - but don't worry about how clean things look - as long stuff doesn't start growing on the corals themselves, you can fix that later. Keep the GFO. Do small water changes if the nitrates get over 10. Every day bring the light up a little but take your time. It won't fix itself overnight.

I dimmed the light by about 40% today and decreased the photperiod by 2 hours. 6 fish really? That many? Ok I need fish pee and there is only one way to get it I guess. I kept the GFO running and the carbon. Skimmer is running 24/7 as well. I have always been skeptical of the coral food mixes I felt like all they every did was make my glass dirty. Gonna hold these light %s til I get some more fish. Then will slowly bring them back up a little at a time.

Thank you very much for all your help much appreciated.

 

[robert]

" It is definately spreading and have read some horror stories online about it. However "algaefix" seems to be a very common and easy way to get rid of the Dictyota. Could the Dictyota be eating up the available nitrogen and contributing to the corals being starved? Should I use some algae-fix now or wait til I get everything else under control? "

I wouldn't add algae-fix. Remove the Dictyota manually. Remove any rock its growing on, even if it means moving corals or fragging polyps.

"6 fish really? That many?"

29 gallons is plenty of room.

 

[AJreefs]

I had the same problem and I was keeping my tank to "clean" and unfortunately lost a few sps that way.

 

[JDK]

UPDATE:

Picked up two fish today- A blue damsel and a strawberry psuedochromis hopefully to get some fertilizer for the zoox.

I have been feeding twice a day. Sometimes mysis sometimes pellets. Believe it or not the slimer actually looks a little better. Not color wise but the polyps are out in spots where I have not seen them in weeks. Mille still has zero polyp extension. Epic chaos frag still has PE only in shaded areas. Dont know if the improvement on slimer is from turning the lights down or feeding more.

Also torch damage was not water quality related. After I placed the new powerhead on the back of the tank to circulate the rear of the rockwork a small stream of water was bouncing off the corner of the tank and blasting the torch. I lost a torch this same way a few months back. I have found they do not like any type of direct flow on their skeletal structure. Mainly the fleshy rim where the tentacles meet the body.

 

[FaviaFreak]

UPDATE:

Picked up two fish today- A blue damsel and a strawberry psuedochromis hopefully to get some fertilizer for the zoox.

I have been feeding twice a day. Sometimes mysis sometimes pellets. Believe it or not the slimer actually looks a little better. Not color wise but the polyps are out in spots where I have not seen them in weeks. Mille still has zero polyp extension. Epic chaos frag still has PE only in shaded areas. Dont know if the improvement on slimer is from turning the lights down or feeding more.

Also torch damage was not water quality related. After I placed the new powerhead on the back of the tank to circulate the rear of the rockwork a small stream of water was bouncing off the corner of the tank and blasting the torch. I lost a torch this same way a few months back. I have found they do not like any type of direct flow on their skeletal structure. Mainly the fleshy rim where the tentacles meet the body.

just curious...did all this coincide with the addition of refresh and waste away?