My Green Slimer went from this...... To this..... PICS--Acro Help Please
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WillKatt
Active Member
Tagging along as well. I have almost the exact things happening in my tank 28g nano same AI sol nano, same dosing regimen parameters, gfo, etc
Heck it almost like we have the same tank. However in my case everything including SPS LPS Z and Ps have all faded to light pastel colors. I have pretty good polyp extension and growth of SPS just no color. In fact I have a green birds nest that has almost doubled in size inside a month but is barely pale green at this point. I have long thought that It was due to too many nutrients as I have lots of green hair algae so I have barely been feeding at all. N and P are near undetectable but I assumed that was due to the algae consuming most of it. Perhaps I have been starving things too much? I wouldn't think I would have nuisance algae like it do if that were the case right?
I will say I did not have these same problems until I went to the AI but I made allot of changes during that time so I cant say for sure its just the light.
Heck it almost like we have the same tank. However in my case everything including SPS LPS Z and Ps have all faded to light pastel colors. I have pretty good polyp extension and growth of SPS just no color. In fact I have a green birds nest that has almost doubled in size inside a month but is barely pale green at this point. I have long thought that It was due to too many nutrients as I have lots of green hair algae so I have barely been feeding at all. N and P are near undetectable but I assumed that was due to the algae consuming most of it. Perhaps I have been starving things too much? I wouldn't think I would have nuisance algae like it do if that were the case right?
I will say I did not have these same problems until I went to the AI but I made allot of changes during that time so I cant say for sure its just the light.
JDK
Active Member
You would think if the tanks were connected the fish poo/pee would also be connected but I am no expert. How long has the 100 gal been set up? I had great PE but one day it was like someone flipped a switch and I lost PE on half my SPS. I do think I am seeing small improvement on PE though. Will be taking weekly pictures to monitor color changes. It is amazing I am feeding twice a day along with some reef roids and aminos and my nutrient levels have not gone up. Phosphates have actually dropped. Nitrate remains below 1. I am going to skip water changes until I see a spike in Nitrates.
I would highly recommend NOT getting an Emerald Crab. IMO they are NOT reef safe. I had one and within an hour it was perched on my SPS munching away at polyps. They are also a PIA to get out of the tank, I had to ninja style bare hand grab him.
Not sure... Drip acclimated for over an hour. Was eating and seemed healthy. Other fish I added are fine and eating from the same LFS. Good thing for the nassarius snails because they stripped him to nothing but a skeleton in a matter of a few hours. No ammonia spike cause the carcas never got a chance to break down and rot.
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JDK
Active Member
What are you %s at? I had my lights set real low like 40-50 and I noticed my acans were a little dull. I was convinced they were getting too much light. Once I raised up to about 80% I noticed the colors on my acans exploded and have never looked better. Zs and Ps are easy to tell if they are getting too much or not enough light. When my lights were low in the start the stalks were stretched. Once my levels came up the stalks went back down were the skirts are now so close to the rocks you cant even see the stems.
I am not sure what to say about your nutrient levels. I have never really had any algae problems. The most important thing I came away from the low nutrient issue is this- If nutrients are low the lights need to be low. If they are high the lights need to be high. If nutrients are lacking (nitrogen specifically, think fertilizer) the zooaxenthella becomes thin and less abundant. So the coral fades in colors, not brown just dull. Zoox is where the color comes from in corals. The zoox acts like a sunscreen for the acro and protects it from the light. They are symbiotic in a way supplying each other with different forms of food back and forth (I think). When there are too many nutrients, excess fertilizer (nitrogen) the corals becomes brown. In this case the zoox is reproducing too much. The coral itself keeps the levels of zoox in check by picking and choosing strains of zoox and getting rid of excess zoox. If the nutrients are too high the coral can not keep up with the zoox which is growing too fast and the coral turns brown.
My plan is to raise the nutrient levels specifically nitrogen-fish poop/pee by feeding more. While the nutrients are going up I am going to be raising the light %s simultaneously. I had my lights at close to 100% for 7 hours a day at one point and did not ever bleach a coral so I am not worried about going high. The raising of light intensities and nutrients need to be done at the same time. I highly recommend reading the reefkeeping magazine article I linked on page 8. Here it is again
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JDK
Active Member
OK so here is the start of the Green Slimer progression photos. I will use this coral because it has lost the most color. Other corals are also visible in the shots which will help determine if I do indeed have a low nutrient problem. Will try and update with a new picture every week from the same angle with the same camera. Lights will be going up in intensity over the coming weeks but I do not think it will affect the pictures. We are looking for a color increase so please chime in if you think the colors are improving
When first put into tank Feb 25th
3-4 months later
6-25-2012
Little over a week after adding 5 fish, increasing feedings and lowering lights by 50%
Have been feeding mysis and Ther-A pellets twice a day. Aminos and ReefRoids once a week (will probably cut back on these in the near future).
When first put into tank Feb 25th
3-4 months later
6-25-2012
Little over a week after adding 5 fish, increasing feedings and lowering lights by 50%
Have been feeding mysis and Ther-A pellets twice a day. Aminos and ReefRoids once a week (will probably cut back on these in the near future).
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JDK
Active Member
Hate to say it but it does not really look better. Still too early to tell though this will take some time. You can see how much algae has grown on the back walls since the feedings have increased. Considering getting some more snails that target only algae. Any one have any suggestions?
Coralline algae on the rocks which was bleached in the centers has also began to color back up. I assume this is because the lights have been turned lowered. Considering raising the light fixture about inch higher to help spread the light out more. I also raised my mag a little which was a little low for my liking. Mag is now on a dosing pump to keep it permanently on this level. Raised to 1375 from 1275.
More pics to come next week.
Coralline algae on the rocks which was bleached in the centers has also began to color back up. I assume this is because the lights have been turned lowered. Considering raising the light fixture about inch higher to help spread the light out more. I also raised my mag a little which was a little low for my liking. Mag is now on a dosing pump to keep it permanently on this level. Raised to 1375 from 1275.
More pics to come next week.
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JDK
Active Member
8 Inches seems pretty high up. Remember that when you raise above 4 inches (AI suggested level) you really are dropping the intensity of the light drastically. I remember an article somewhere that even an inch higher can really lower the PAR numbers significantly. If you are running in the 90% levels but are eight inches above the water you are probably below 40% intensity when compared to the same light being 4 inches above the water level. The height plays a very important role I would consider lowering the light and the %s at the same time. At least when the light is lower you can lower the intensity if it is too strong. When you are too high above the water you can only go to max %s.
Can you post some pics of your corals?
There is a fellow reefer on another forum who helped me a lot when I was setting up my tank. Him and I were the only people on the whole forum running an AI Nano on a biocube when it first came out. I will try and get in contact with him and direct him to this thread. He is experienced and can chime in Im sure.
I am considering turning off my skimmer every other day or maybe having it off for 2 out of 3 days. I have been reading in the Zeo forums that in ULNS overskimming can be an issue where SPS pales out. If in fact I am running a very low nutrient system maybe this will help?
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-Logzor
2500 Club Member
I think we need to get back to the basics for problems like this. Assuming this problem is caused by some lack of iron of other trace mineral is ridiculous at best. Just because a green coral is fading doesn't mean it's missing iron. No offence but I really think it does damage shouting out "this is the solution" when you really have no way of proving it. Someone might actually trust you and dump something into their tank that they shouldn't.
When I see a problem like this I immediately look at the accuracy and reliability of the test kits used to measure water parameters.
The first things you need to check when you see corals fading along with the loss of coraline algae is your salinity and temperature, the most fundamental and basic measurements in our reef systems. More often than not, they're not measured accurately due to poor calibration, general failure of the measurement device, user error, and bad calibration fluid. To do check these parameters properly you should order a new bottle of calibration fluid for salinity measurement (I recommend Sybon brand) and order a calibrated temperature probe (there are some nice ones on Amazon for around $20).
I would also recommend doing the same for your based test kits; trying new brands, or having a LFS test your water. What ended up helping me was testing water samples from high end vendors, such as WWC, with the assumption that "if their corals look awesome then their water parameters are spot on, if I match their parameters with my test kits I am essentially calibrating them to the water quality of WWC". If that makes sense...
In addition, I've also ran an AI sol module. It's something about LEDs, the way they beam the light down on corals, some just react poorly and need to be acclimated from an extremely low level of light and rampped up slowly over time. I don't care how much wattage of MH you have over the same coral, LEDs are an entirely different beast.
When I see a problem like this I immediately look at the accuracy and reliability of the test kits used to measure water parameters.
The first things you need to check when you see corals fading along with the loss of coraline algae is your salinity and temperature, the most fundamental and basic measurements in our reef systems. More often than not, they're not measured accurately due to poor calibration, general failure of the measurement device, user error, and bad calibration fluid. To do check these parameters properly you should order a new bottle of calibration fluid for salinity measurement (I recommend Sybon brand) and order a calibrated temperature probe (there are some nice ones on Amazon for around $20).
I would also recommend doing the same for your based test kits; trying new brands, or having a LFS test your water. What ended up helping me was testing water samples from high end vendors, such as WWC, with the assumption that "if their corals look awesome then their water parameters are spot on, if I match their parameters with my test kits I am essentially calibrating them to the water quality of WWC". If that makes sense...
In addition, I've also ran an AI sol module. It's something about LEDs, the way they beam the light down on corals, some just react poorly and need to be acclimated from an extremely low level of light and rampped up slowly over time. I don't care how much wattage of MH you have over the same coral, LEDs are an entirely different beast.
landlord
Active Member
The problems I have encountered over the years have been caused by either light, flow, or alk spike. It is usually the simplest of answers. If trace elements turn out to be the cause I stand corrected but in the thousand of posts the proof just isn't there. Stick to the basics like the poster above stated. Have a buddy come check you chemistry. Let another pair of eyes into the fold. Experience is the best weapon in case like this.
impur
GO DUCKS!!!
I think this is the most important thing to remember. I also have an AI unit, the Sol blue. My green slimer looks as bad as yours and also has a bleached branch. My Oregon tort and cali tort both have burnt tips. 1" away my Birds of Paradise birdsnest has never looked better. All of my zoas are reaching for light. I am finding LEDs to be very difficult to dial in. It not only involves height of the light, but also intensity, and you still have to plan where to put corals to give them the best conditions. My problem was the corals were already in place, I switched from a Lumenbright pendant to the AI Sol which I just increased the intensities to 35/45/45 from 12-3.
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Onedesign1
Active Member
i agree its the light. LEDs are different beasts and SOLS are just focuses too tight IMO. I've gotten tremendous color and growth by running lower PAR across the board.
JDK
Active Member
The problems I have encountered over the years have been caused by either light, flow, or alk spike. It is usually the simplest of answers. If trace elements turn out to be the cause I stand corrected but in the thousand of posts the proof just isn't there. Stick to the basics like the poster above stated. Have a buddy come check you chemistry. Let another pair of eyes into the fold. Experience is the best weapon in case like this.
I agree that light is playing a big part. I disagree that flow or ALK is at play here. My alk never fluctuates more that 2/10 to 5/10 of point via dosing pumps. Flow is pushing 50X or more. My original posts explain the flow and alk of the tank.
I do NOT believe trace elements are play here nor was it ever considered by more than one person. Iron is not the problem. Nutrients however can be a problem. Thousands of posts point to this. I was so focused on nutrient exportation I never considered the import of the same nutrients. This thread is an experiment and the results will be seen hopefully. Virtually all variables have been removed I hope. With all do respect I do not see the point of another pair of eyes to read a salifert test result. Experience has spoken here and after reading and reading and reading and reading I keep coming back to low nutrient import with high nutrient import. This article helped me a lot toward weeding through the "expert" opinoins.
JDK
Active Member
I agree. I never considered the lack of Iron as a cause nor did I ever post that I believed that or that was the solution to the problems. I frankly thought it to be ridiculous myself. Frankenstein was quickly dismissed.
I agree this is a valid point. However, if a brand new Salifert test kit is unrealiable then I am doomed. The same goes for a Hanna phosphate checker.
Salinity is a valid point but when I mix a batch of new saltwater with 1/2 cup per gallon as directed by the box for 1.026 salinity and the refractometer reads 1.026 it is hard to think that is the cause. I have calibration fluid and calibrate it frequently. If it was off wouldn't my 1/2 cup per gallon not measure to 1.026?
As far as temperature goes I do not see how it is possible to calibrate a Digital Aquatics ReefKeeper temperature probe or have a temperature probe that is more or less calibrated. It is a thermometer. If we were talking PH or ORP I could see some validity there but we are talking temperature. The temperature may have swung at some point but not recently. My reefkeeper is set to keep the temperature at 77 within .1 degrees. This does not fluctuate unless my air conditioner breaks which it has not. My Living room is 72' all day every day.
I am not having my LFS check my water. Maybe a fellow local reefer but not my LFS. Their tanks looks worse than mine. I love WWC and wish they could test mine but that is not an option. I am relying on Salifert. I have used multiple batches of tests and other brands such as API.
Once again... THIS IS NOT AN AI SOL! Everyone keeps talking about focused beams etc. etc. etc. An AI SOL LED runs a combination of 40' and 70' optics. This is an AI SOL NANO! The nano is ALL 70' optics. There are NO 40 degree optics in the mix. Comparing the two units is not valid and trying to compensate for the differences is a waste of time they are two very different lights. The focused beam problems with AI SOLS is not valid with this light. LED problems in general may be valid but as soon as you say focused beam I can not take your argument seriously. I have read thousands of posts about AI SOLs and the problems. This thread was great regarding AI SOLs. I have an AI NANO
Also reading about Roberto Lopes AI SOL tank was very helpful. He runs his lights crazy high and has an amazing tank. His success came partly from installing all 70' optics which the Nano has. Focused beams is not the problem here.
I appreciate everyones input and encourage more input here but please read the whole thread before telling me to test my water, check my temperature, or that LEDs are no good.
JDK
Active Member
AGAIN this is not an AI SOL. You have a mix of 40' and 70' optics. That is why one of your corals is great and the other is bleached. You are comparing apples to oranges. I have all 70' optics on the NANO. There is no bleaching on my corals. They are pale. There is no coral that is great next to one that is bleached. There is a difference between an AI SOL and an AI NANO. My zoas are not "reaching for light". The reason your zoas are reaching for light is because you have the intesity set too low. The reason you have the intensity set too low is that you are bleaching corals. The reason you are bleaching corals is because you are running a mix of optics. In some spots you have good solid spread and in the others you have spotlights of bleaching death. I suggest you switch out for all 70' optics and read THIS THREAD.
JDK
Active Member
For the third time I am not running an AI SOL. The focus of light you are talking about is from 40' optics. The NANO has all 70' optics. I agree that the PAR readings on this light are not accurate. It is a scientific fact that apogee par meters can not accurately measure the blue LEDs for PAR. Especially the royal blue. Numbers are way higher than the meter is capable of reading. My tank is not running an AI Sol with a mix of optics. It is like comparing a MH tank with a reflector to a MH tank with no reflector. It is not a valid comparison.
I appreciate everyones input but please read the entire post. This will be a long thread with lots of pictures. I am no longer in the phase of determining the cause of the problem. I believe I have a low nutrient problem. Light and low nutrients play off of one another it is not a singular problem. After reading hundreds of pages of AA and RKM articles on nutrients and light this is what I have determined. This thread will be an experiment on low nutrients and high light. Pictures will follow from week to week and the results will speak for themselves hopefully.
PAR is not an independent variable. It is contigent upon other factors. If running LEDs too high was the problem with AIs no one would be having problems. They would just lower their light levels and everything would be fine. There is a direct correlation between the health and growth of zoox and light levels. This in turn plays into the health of stoney corals in general. SPS corals are not one animal. They are many. The organisms within play off one another and feed off one another. PAR is not a value that can be measured without the consideration of other factors. This article series was very helpful to me. More so than any post on any forum. I would recommend to anyone reading the whole 4 part series of articles.
Thank you to Robert for pointing me in this direction and leading me to this series of articles. This made the most sense to me and the evidence in the tank pointed this direction as well-
Robert from R2R-
"I also think its a nutrient issue - specifically nitrogen. Cyano can grow by fixing N2 gas from the water - your corals can't do this. The presence of other algaes mean little if the are not actively growing.
I also can believe that your corals are photo inhibited - with nothing to feed the zoox - the zoox can't produce the nutrients for the corals to protect themselves. This too is from starvation - not too much light.
Do not feed the corals oyster feast or anything else like that. You'll only end up feeding bacteria which will compete for the little available nitrogen. Yes corals do eat - but it is not enough to sustain them. The zoox inside the corals is what you want to feed. They get carbon from the carbonate/co2 in the water - not from food. You've got phosphate - or you wouldn't be growing cyano. They need nitrogen. The best source is fish. They excrete ammonia through their gills and depending on the fish, their urine. That's what corals feed to the zoox.
Dim the light by about half - add a number of damsels- chromis if you prefer - the more the better. Six or more. Feed the fish. You can scrape and remove that cyano if you want - but don't worry about how clean things look - as long stuff doesn't start growing on the corals themselves, you can fix that later. Keep the GFO. Do small water changes if the nitrates get over 10. Every day bring the light up a little but take your time. It won't fix itself overnight."
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Onedesign1
Active Member
ok...so try relaxing a bit then. No need to yell at us recent posters just trying to help. I did read the thread as I am fascinated by problems and subsequent solutions.....and yeah your rocks are too clean, and you have other problems going on. No doubt.
So I was the "for the 3rd time its not an AI SOL..."....that being said you're running your light 4" off the surface and those acros look close to the surface but I honestly can't tell. I know a bit about LEDs, Par, & Optics and I don't need an education but you have 10 Crees on a dinky little footprint 4" off the water and 70' optics are way too tight....you would honestly be better off with no optics. Take it or leave it as advice...I really don't care. But your corals are getting uneven light and I'm surprised you don't see banding.
At the end of the day honestly? You're doing way to much stuff to that little tank. I'm curious why you need to dose with a handful of SPS in there. Regular water changes should do just fine. Maybe back to the basics would be the best approach here...sometimes less is more....
So I was the "for the 3rd time its not an AI SOL..."....that being said you're running your light 4" off the surface and those acros look close to the surface but I honestly can't tell. I know a bit about LEDs, Par, & Optics and I don't need an education but you have 10 Crees on a dinky little footprint 4" off the water and 70' optics are way too tight....you would honestly be better off with no optics. Take it or leave it as advice...I really don't care. But your corals are getting uneven light and I'm surprised you don't see banding.
At the end of the day honestly? You're doing way to much stuff to that little tank. I'm curious why you need to dose with a handful of SPS in there. Regular water changes should do just fine. Maybe back to the basics would be the best approach here...sometimes less is more....
JDK
Active Member
I appreciate the input did not mean to come off that way Im sorry. I just am trying to have realistic comparisons and IMO comparing SOLs at different heights and different combination of optics is not constructive when comparing the two lights. I agree the light was probably too strong at some point and it has been lowered accordingly.
All acros on top are at the same level. Only the slimer and mille are in worsening condition. This may be due to spread as you say that is very valid. 4" is the height AI gives to achieve the spread and numbers they list in their specifications. This is akin to people who run their AI sols at 6 inches and wonder why everything bleaches. AI clearly states to run the SOLs at 12 inches. I have considered raising the light an inch and probably will do so to increase the even spread of the light. I was not trying to educate you in anyway I am far from a LED expert, but a general statement like "I have great growth at low par accross the board" is nothing more than a statement not advice. I have seen plenty of threads where AI LEDs are being run very high and they have great growth and color as well. One of these people could easily say "I have great growth and color at high par". Each tank is different I think that was my point. Also PAR is a very general parameter which is related to many things. It is not singular I understand this and that is the point of this thread. I was not trying to be rude sorry again. I appreciate taking the time to try and help.
No need to be condescending about dinky tanks. Someone following this thread who posted a few pages back has the exact same footprint, parameters, dosing, gfo very very similar. He runs his light 8 inches off the water which is double mine. He says his corals look exactly the same and is running his AI Nano at the same levels I was running mine at before I turned them down. My point is this. Light is a factor but to refer to it as the only factor is not helpful when general statements are being used and have already been discussed.
I need to dose via a pump because my tank uses 1.1 DKH of Alk a day. It also uses 10ppm of calcium per day. If I did a water change on Sunday and did not dose until the next Sunday my levels would be drastically depleted. Talk about an alk swing. Once again your statement is too general and not specific to my tank. A tank with a couple frags and mushrooms may be able to get away with just water changes for alk/cal/mg and trace elements my tank can not. Where did you get a "handful of SPS frags" from? Please just ask what is in the tank before you assume based on a couple pictures.
I currently have-
1- Five inch Maxima Clam (sucks calcium up)
14- SPS frags- 13 acros, milles, stylos, and 1 encrusting monti- (all growing, maybe slowly but they are all growing every day)
11- Acan specimens all growing fast
6- kinds of Zs and Ps
10- different mushrooms/rics etc
1- Cyphastrea
1- Euphyllia (torch)
Coralline growing like mad everyday in new spots. Sometimes it grows new spots on the glass in a matter of two days after I clean it.
If this is a handful of frags then I do not want to know what a lot is. I appreciate your help but please be specific and better yet be tank specific everything is listed in this thread. I have chosen a course of action to take. I highly suggest reading Eric Borneman's series on reef and nutrients.
I had an idea in my head that wild coral reefs had pristine water. They do not have pristine water. They have an ecosystem which sucks out huge amounts of nutrients as fast as they hit the water making them appear and test to be pristine with no detectable levels. We reefers spend so much effort and money trying to remove nutrients and replicate the pristine quality of natural reefs. However we often overlook the import side of nutrients. I spent months perfecting my exportation of nutrients and made it extremely effective through multiple means. This was all done however without adjusting my importation of nutrients. It sucked my water clean. Too clean and with only two fish which were not fed enough (every other day). The goal now is to import as much nutrients as possible while exporting it at the same time. The balancing act is the key and the hard/fun part. After reading Bornemans article series I believe everything in my tank is battling for nitrogen. It is a competition that happens in the wild. In closed systems nitrogen usually appears in the form of nitrates. My tank has barely any (.2-.5). For my tank setup specifically, not in general, the best way to add a constant stream of nitrogen, is to have fish poop/pee it out all day long continuosly. For other tanks a lot of fish and feeding may destroy their tank but every tank is different. My export is efficient enough to remove it before it has a chance to break down and cycle into nitrate/phosphate. Thats why my tank has been reading so low on nitrates for so long (6 months). The nitrogen has been sucked out before it can even get to that point. My skimmer is rated for I believe 75 gallons. My tank is 29 Gallons (21 actual water volume). The lack of nutrients (NOT trace elements) finally caught up with me and the light was now too bright for the corals to handle. The zoox which feeds on nitrogen was no longer thick and slimy. It was thin and unhealthy leaving the coral succeptible to the intensity of the light. This level of light was fine until the nutrients were slowly depleted and in turn the population of zoox on the corals surface became more and more scarce.
My dream tank in the future would be one with no fish and unbelievable exportation ability. In turn I would love in some way to import food (nitrogen) in a continuous stream like in the wild. There are people with tanks out there that are capable of doing this. These are the tanks where acros spawn in the tanks and acros grow on the glass like coralline.
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Big E
Valuable Member
I wouldn't get so caught up with those Borneman articles. It's simple, you have to find a balance between your lighting, feeding & export. It's like a three legged table......if one is not right, the table is tilted...... your corals & algae will show you. Unfortunately, LED's make this more difficult because people are still learning to use them correctly & they aren't full spectrum.
I wouldn't do more than add a few fish & raise or lower the intensity of the lights........... be patient and watch the tank. Changes will take many weeks not days. Focus on only those two variables.
I mentioned cutting a frag of your slimer & putting it in a spot where other acros are doing good. It will give you some signs about your lighting.
I wouldn't do more than add a few fish & raise or lower the intensity of the lights........... be patient and watch the tank. Changes will take many weeks not days. Focus on only those two variables.
I mentioned cutting a frag of your slimer & putting it in a spot where other acros are doing good. It will give you some signs about your lighting.
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