New leopard wrasse not doing well after shipment

[christinna77]

Sorry to hear - I don’t think there was anything you could have done to change the outcome. This genus is delicate and just don’t ship well. Additionally, it looks thin to me and in the post mortem pic there is a lesion on its right upper side.

Thank you. She was definitely eating at the store, but perhaps not enough? I've never seen a fish as stressed out as this one before. Looked like she was going to have a heart attack when she arrived. I'm definitely going to try getting one from my LFS instead.
About the lesion - perhaps got banged up during the transport somehow? :/

 

[vetteguy53081]

For 40m I floated the bag and then did another hour of drip acclimation (dosed ammo lock right after opening), as recommended by the store. Salinity matched.

if you dosed ammo lock to the bag, you were given Very bad advice as its a freshwater product and does not Lock up ammonia as the bottle implies. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia which lowers the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the ammonia toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia which then raises the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish.

 

[christinna77]

For 40m I floated the bag and then did another hour of drip acclimation (dosed ammo lock right after opening), as recommended by the store. Salinity matched.

if you dosed ammo lock to the bag, you were given Very bad advice as its a freshwater product and does not Lock up ammonia as the bottle implies. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia which lowers the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the ammonia toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia which then raises the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish.

I emptied the bag contents into a bucket. I added the supplied ammo lock. Then I dripped for an hour. I'm confused now, because I googled it and saw ammo lock recommended by several sources.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I emptied the bag contents into a bucket. I added the supplied ammo lock. Then I dripped for an hour. I'm confused now, because I googled it and saw ammo lock recommended by several sources.

Look into the resources and credibility when googling as there are two types of ammonia toxicity and this additive will lower amount temporaily as its cannot bond and hold ammonia in the water. That ammonia has to go somewhere

 

[Tcook]

When I order fish I call to ask shipping salinity and match my observation tank. I also have saturated saltwater and RO ready to adjust after checking bag sg. Temp acclimate then drop in. You can slso ask them to put sand in the bag (@JoJosReef requests this) for any leopards or halichoeres wrasses so they aren’t constantly hitting the bottom of a bare bag trying to burry. But as you mentioned, buying and watching one at the lfs even better.

 

[christinna77]

Thanks for all your advice, but you're essentially telling me to completely disregard the vendor's directions, and risk not getting a refund if the fish doesn't make it. Which also doesn't sit well with me.

Anyway, I'll see if I can get the wrasse from my LFS instead next time.

 

[Tcook]

Thanks for all your advice, but you're essentially telling me to completely disregard the vendor's directions, and risk not getting a refund if the fish doesn't make it. Which also doesn't sit well with me.

Anyway, I'll see if I can get the wrasse from my LFS instead next time.

I never drip a fish shipped in O2 for the reasons @vetteguy53081 has mentioned above. You need to do what works for you. I try to get all fish from my trusted lfs as much as possible. I watch the fish for a week or more to let it adjust and feed. He will then slowly acclimate up to 1.026 for me.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for all your advice, but you're essentially telling me to completely disregard the vendor's directions, and risk not getting a refund if the fish doesn't make it. Which also doesn't sit well with me.

Anyway, I'll see if I can get the wrasse from my LFS instead next time.

Did you notice the lesion when the fish arrived - to me it looks almost like uronema - or an infected wound. Sorry to hear it died, though.

 

[christinna77]

Did you notice the lesion when the fish arrived - to me it looks almost like uronema - or an infected wound. Sorry to hear it died, though.

The lesion wasn't there, I just went over all the pictures and videos again. I saw her completely freak out swimming into everything for around 10 seconds right before she passed. I'm thinking she injured herself then.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thank you. She was definitely eating at the store, but perhaps not enough? I've never seen a fish as stressed out as this one before. Looked like she was going to have a heart attack when she arrived. I'm definitely going to try getting one from my LFS instead.
About the lesion - perhaps got banged up during the transport somehow? :/

Or the lesion it could have been Uronema. Did it show up near the end, or had it been visible the whole time?

 

[skey44]

Sorry for your loss. It took me two unsuccessful tries before getting a leopard to thrive. They are just hard to get established. Don’t think it’s you, they’re difficult shippers and don’t tolerate shipping well. I agree temp acclimate and in, not a fan of the stress that happens in the drip. I personally attempted to pre-salinity match my QT to the shipped water instead of drip acclimation. FWIW the one I have that seems to be adjusting very well to captivity was at an LFS one day and it was eating live brine. Snatched it up and she’s doing great about 3 weeks into observation. She likes piled sand in the corner for her bed and not the Tupperware bowl of sand. Good luck and hang in there. Beautiful fish species, worth all the trouble (hopefully). Next step after getting them eating is getting them on schedule. Mine is up from 7am to 7pm or so now. Initially it would go to sleep around 3:30 to 4pm which was frustrating as I work 8-4 and was only able to feed and observe briefly before work. Now she’s out for an hour at least when I get home. Also ironically she doesn’t like brine (since it’s what I saw her eat at LFS). She’s eating mysis, fish eggs, and LRS fish frenzy so far.
Very smart fish with obvious intelligence and interesting behaviors. I love the personality almost as much as the patterns and colors which is what initially attracted me to the genus.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The lesion wasn't there, I just went over all the pictures and videos again. I saw her completely freak out swimming into everything for around 10 seconds right before she passed. I'm thinking she injured herself then.

I think we can rule out Uronema then. Also, the wrasse doesn’t look quite as thin in these photos (picture angle can make a fish appear thinner than it actually was).

 

[jmcdona6]

Thanks for all your advice, but you're essentially telling me to completely disregard the vendor's directions, and risk not getting a refund if the fish doesn't make it. Which also doesn't sit well with me.

Anyway, I'll see if I can get the wrasse from my LFS instead next time.

What they are saying is becoming fairly universal advice. Drip acclimatation used to be common practice but newer science has linked it with higher mortality rates, particularly in amateur hands. All the major marine fish retailers I use or have interacted with in the last few years have all abandoned the drip method and warn against it.

As for the product you used...so many snake oils in the aquarium industry. You really have to do your research and approach every product with a strong level of skepticism.

It may or may not have played a factor here, but I wouldn't spurn Jay and Vetteguy's expert advice over a vendor who hasn't updated their techniques with the times...

 

[skey44]

Agree that vendor is behind the times. I worked fish retail in the 2000’s and even then wholesalers railed against drip acclimation. Especially for fish shipped overnight because shipping stress and ammonia toxicity when you open the bag is way worse than the change in salinity/water parameters. I keep my salinity at 1.020 when getting new fish into QT or observation unless I know the vendor runs a higher salinity as most wholesale/fish store vendors run lower salinity in their systems and going quickly up in salinity is worse than going down for the fish.

 

[MnFish1]

Thanks for all your advice, but you're essentially telling me to completely disregard the vendor's directions, and risk not getting a refund if the fish doesn't make it. Which also doesn't sit well with me.

Anyway, I'll see if I can get the wrasse from my LFS instead next time.

Liveaquaria still favors exactly the protocol you used - Becasue seawater is much better buffered than freshwater (where drip acclimation has been not recommended for quite a while) - the ammonia/pH issue is often not as important (but should not be totally ignored). You IMHO were correct to follow the advice/rules provided to you by the company you bought from - or indeed you will risk the guarantee.

I buy all my fish locally - so support your decision to use an LFS.

This article goes through some of the point.

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/cont...tion is best used,the pH and salinity levels.

 

[W31Olds]

Maybe some of the Vendors that still recommend Drip Acclimation are worried that customers would not salinity match their QT Tanks and if adding a fish directly to their DT can't match it risking osmotic shock to the new arrival. Ultimately, all vendors (online or LFS) should agree to a salinity standard like 1.025 so matching would be unnecessary. Most of the fish seem to ship at 1.019-21 and I could not say what the cost delta is for running their systems at 1.025 although the calculation would be fairly easy and the cost might be offset by reduced claims. There may be reasons for running low salinity systems and shipping at low salinity that the Fish Medics can explain.

 

[christinna77]

Maybe some of the Vendors that still recommend Drip Acclimation are worried that customers would not salinity match their QT Tanks and if adding a fish directly to their DT can't match it risking osmotic shock to the new arrival. Ultimately, all vendors (online or LFS) should agree to a salinity standard like 1.025 so matching would be unnecessary. Most of the fish seem to ship at 1.019-21 and I could not say what the cost delta is for running their systems at 1.025 although the calculation would be fairly easy and the cost might be offset by reduced claims. There may be reasons for running low salinity systems and shipping at low salinity that the Fish Medics can explain.

The store ships their quarantined fish in 1.024-26 salinity and no copper already, so they can go right into DT, but I was still told to drip acclimate.

 

[SlowAndStupid]

I likely got lucky when ordering my ornate leopard wrasse from Dr reef considering how sensitive they are known to be during shipping. When mine arrived I checked it's salinity which matched my tank. I acclimated per his instructions on his website. I had a Tupperware of sand in my acclimation tank that I dropped him right over when I put him in. He promptly ignored it and explored the tank the first 2 days. After that he went to bed in the sand every evening promptly at 8pm. He was very active from the get go.

Now that he is in my main tank he is thriving and still goes to bed promptly each night in his same spot in the sand. I hope you can get a healthy specimen acclimated. It's probably my favorite fish to watch zooming around hunting for pods all day.

 

[MnFish1]

Maybe some of the Vendors that still recommend Drip Acclimation are worried that customers would not salinity match their QT Tanks and if adding a fish directly to their DT can't match it risking osmotic shock to the new arrival. Ultimately, all vendors (online or LFS) should agree to a salinity standard like 1.025 so matching would be unnecessary. Most of the fish seem to ship at 1.019-21 and I could not say what the cost delta is for running their systems at 1.025 although the calculation would be fairly easy and the cost might be offset by reduced claims. There may be reasons for running low salinity systems and shipping at low salinity that the Fish Medics can explain.

I have never had fish shipped at that specific gravity - I'm not doubting you though. The issue was somewhat different (what I was talking about) - and that was the risk of ammonia toxicity in a relatively buffered bag.

 

[56longroof]

It appears it was half gone when it was delivered. I dont think you could have done anything to help it. If your dead set on a leopard add a ton of pods to your main display before adding the fish. Then I'd skip quarantine and put it directly into the main display. Its not the most popular opinion to not quarantine first but the less stress on these fish the better. Its worked well for the ones in my tank.Does your tank have plenty of sand across the whole floor? A pile here and there probably isn't enough.