new Maroon Clownfish starving itself and spitting out all of its food for 8 or 9 days

[blazin'reefer]

hi i have a moroon or in this case morron clown that i got as a christmas gift about 8 or 9 days ago that will not keep food in his mouth. He will only chase the food about half of the feedings at all and when he does chase it down he spits everything out from what i can see.

He was initially put into my 55 display but the fact i didnt see him get any food down for over a week i decided to move him to my 3g nano that has no other fish to see if he would eat there but same story.

I did notice that my ro filter has apparently gone bad after changing all filters only 6 months ago and changing the 3 pre filters just last week and is now reading like 30-50ppm so i do need to get a new membrane asap. no clue how it died so fast, i do have a di unit but have not used it recently due to the brass fitting gate valve turning green and making me think it was releasing copper. my tap water is also 450tds on average. no other fish or coral seem affected yet though. I just bought some distilled 0ppm water and did a 25% water change in the 3 gallon nano tank with that incase something in the water was ticking the clown off and added new AC but just tried feeding again and no joy.

The fish store said when they had him he was destroying blood worms and spirulina brine. Foods i have tried include: Hikari frozen enriched brine, hikary enriched mysis, hikary ocean plankton, hikari spirulina brine shrimp, hikari bloodworms, few leftover nls pellets, tetra tropical fish flake and also nori but all have the exact same response. I have also tried soaking food in garlic and have had 0 luck with it.

The fishes symptoms are as i said relatively listless, hardly chases food and spits it instantly if it does, fins very slightly frayed/tatered, hosts one spot even during most feedings, partially indented belly with stringy white or clearish feces, No flashing or scratching at all, no white dots or lesions or anything weird i can see, and his breathing seems normal. The main thing is 0 appetite.

im wondering if i should try to see if my lfs has any live foods or possibly seachem entice as i have heard mixed reports about it helping with things like this but also dont want to waste the money on it. I was also thinking it could be something internal going on so maybe i should treat with prazi or metro. i do live in canada but managed to get some prazi online, other meds i have on hand are almost all the thomas labs antibiotics including metro but thats pretty much it. I also did a freshwater dip that almost killed him a few days ago and saw nothing. I have not dosed anything yet due to the fish already not having any real appetite and not keeping food down and hearing prazi and metro suppress the apetite even more. Any advise with what i should do would be highly appreciated as i feel its inevitable i am going to lose him if i dont do something quick. Has been a constant worry and headache since i got him literally 24/7

Here is a picture of him in the 3 gallon hosting in the corner vertically like he continually does.

 

[blazin'reefer]

also i didnt post the parameters due to the issue being the same in both tanks and only affecting the one fish but if needed i will test again. They are both kept at 1.025, 78f in the 55 and no heater in the nano due to it always running near 80 whenever i tested it. sending out a random batman beacon and calling on some of the many resident fish experts i have read threads from reguarding fish illness and hoping someone can spare a few minutes for this clown: @vetteguy53081 @Humblefish @redfishbluefish like i said though help from anyone with ideas is highly appreciated. Time is looking like its running low for this clown.

 

[Magnapinna]

8-9 days is a relatively short time in your care. On top of the stress of acclimation, being relocated again into the 3gal plus the FW dip that "almost killed him" --- that's a lot of goings-on in a short period, and I'd wager the poor guy is very stressed. A TDS of 450 is insanely high and a 25% water change might also be stressful if the new & old water differ significantly. As I understand ~6mo is an average lifespan for cheaper units/filters but water quality affects their longevity too, even for higher end ones.

Many of the foods you mentioned come in either frozen or dry formulas. Which are you using and which were the LFS using? Are you using the same brand as them?

Personally I would try live food ASAP and before dosing any medications. The fact he's showing any signs of appetence is good and live food is typically the most enticing. Medications are stressful and in my opinion he's already had a stressful few days. Stress is a major immunosuppressant and the more of it he endures, the more susceptible he is to disease. Malnutrition is also an immunosuppressant. Medications can only do so much, especially when the fish's natural immunity is weakened. Clear/white feces can occur with primary malnutrition as well as bacterial disease, so I wouldn't necessarily assume this means parasitic infection; inappropriate medication can also make matters worse. If he wasn't quarantined (it sounds like he wasn't), it's possible he picked up a bug from your display. I'm not a fan of using pharmaceuticals in aquaria if at all avoidable -- especially when etiology is in question -- but someone else can weigh in on this.

 

[vetteguy53081]

hi i have a moroon or in this case morron clown that i got as a christmas gift about 8 or 9 days ago that will not keep food in his mouth. He will only chase the food about half of the feedings at all and when he does chase it down he spits everything out from what i can see.

He was initially put into my 55 display but the fact i didnt see him get any food down for over a week i decided to move him to my 3g nano that has no other fish to see if he would eat there but same story.

I did notice that my ro filter has apparently gone bad after changing all filters only 6 months ago and changing the 3 pre filters just last week and is now reading like 30-50ppm so i do need to get a new membrane asap. no clue how it died so fast, i do have a di unit but have not used it recently due to the brass fitting gate valve turning green and making me think it was releasing copper. my tap water is also 450tds on average. no other fish or coral seem affected yet though. I just bought some distilled 0ppm water and did a 25% water change in the 3 gallon nano tank with that incase something in the water was ticking the clown off and added new AC but just tried feeding again and no joy.

The fish store said when they had him he was destroying blood worms and spirulina brine. Foods i have tried include: Hikari frozen enriched brine, hikary enriched mysis, hikary ocean plankton, hikari spirulina brine shrimp, hikari bloodworms, few leftover nls pellets, tetra tropical fish flake and also nori but all have the exact same response. I have also tried soaking food in garlic and have had 0 luck with it.

The fishes symptoms are as i said relatively listless, hardly chases food and spits it instantly if it does, fins very slightly frayed/tatered, hosts one spot even during most feedings, partially indented belly with stringy white or clearish feces, No flashing or scratching at all, no white dots or lesions or anything weird i can see, and his breathing seems normal. The main thing is 0 appetite.

im wondering if i should try to see if my lfs has any live foods or possibly seachem entice as i have heard mixed reports about it helping with things like this but also dont want to waste the money on it. I was also thinking it could be something internal going on so maybe i should treat with prazi or metro. i do live in canada but managed to get some prazi online, other meds i have on hand are almost all the thomas labs antibiotics including metro but thats pretty much it. I also did a freshwater dip that almost killed him a few days ago and saw nothing. I have not dosed anything yet due to the fish already not having any real appetite and not keeping food down and hearing prazi and metro suppress the apetite even more. Any advise with what i should do would be highly appreciated as i feel its inevitable i am going to lose him if i dont do something quick. Has been a constant worry and headache since i got him literally 24/7

Here is a picture of him in the 3 gallon hosting in the corner vertically like he continually does.

Pics very fuzzy but this is likely due to poor acclimation, water quality or condition such as flukes.
How did you acclimate fish and for how long?
Did you equalize salinity?
Any unusual behavior such as sudden darting, heavy breathing, unusual swimming behavior?

Some foods to entice it are usually:
Brine shrimp
Mysis shrimp
LRS Fish Frenzy
TDO pellets

 

[Jay Hemdal]

First, you can rule out the water issues with the RO unit, that would not be the cause.

The picture is too fuzzy to see anything, and you would likely notice any issues we would in a picture. A clear video would give me some indication of its breathing rate, and that could help with diagnosis.

Are there other fish in the same tank? How are they doing?

At this point - the fish either came in to you with some disease (as evidenced by the sunken belly and mucus feces, or there was an acclimation issue (like going from a low salinity at the store to a high salinity in your tank).

Here is an article I wrote on fish anorexia:

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

Jay

 

[blazin'reefer]

8-9 days is a relatively short time in your care. On top of the stress of acclimation, being relocated again into the 3gal plus the FW dip that "almost killed him" --- that's a lot of goings-on in a short period, and I'd wager the poor guy is very stressed. A TDS of 450 is insanely high and a 25% water change might also be stressful if the new & old water differ significantly. As I understand ~6mo is an average lifespan for cheaper units/filters but water quality affects their longevity too, even for higher end ones.

Many of the foods you mentioned come in either frozen or dry formulas. Which are you using and which were the LFS using? Are you using the same brand as them?

Personally I would try live food ASAP and before dosing any medications. The fact he's showing any signs of appetence is good and live food is typically the most enticing. Medications are stressful and in my opinion he's already had a stressful few days. Stress is a major immunosuppressant and the more of it he endures, the more susceptible he is to disease. Malnutrition is also an immunosuppressant. Medications can only do so much, especially when the fish's natural immunity is weakened. Clear/white feces can occur with primary malnutrition as well as bacterial disease, so I wouldn't necessarily assume this means parasitic infection; inappropriate medication can also make matters worse. If he wasn't quarantined (it sounds like he wasn't), it's possible he picked up a bug from your display. I'm not a fan of using pharmaceuticals in aquaria if at all avoidable -- especially when etiology is in question -- but someone else can weigh in on this.

I believe it has been 8-9 days but might have been 10. I left him in the 55 for about 7 or 8 days and after seeing him eat nothing and get skinnier while staying in the top corner i was worried he might have something that could spread so i thought i would take him out and deal with him seperate. Most clowns i have had in the past would fast for a max of 4 days so when it got to double that point i kinda panicked. Was also worried about my other fish bullying him getting weaker and weaker.

The tap water tds really is insanely high, sometimes ive measured it as high as 600 too, could be because we live in an old house with lead intakes i think plus the city water has been known to have lead issues aswell. Most ro membranes have still lasted me usually atleast a year sometimes 1.5 for better quality ones which is why i was expecting it to last longer and i have used it less than normal these last 6 months. For the 25% water change i only poured half the water in and waited about half an hour or an hour before adding the other half so it wouldnt be as much of a shock.

The foods i have been using are frozen for all of the hikari products mentioned. Pellet for the nls, and flake for the tetra tropical. Several usually mixed all together and defrosted, even tried blanching half the recent feeding out of desperation but it didnt work either. The hikari frozen blood worms and hikari frozen spirulina brine is what the store said that they feed.

Thanks for the suggestions, i will try calling a bunch of fish stores and see if any have any live foods today and hope for the best but not sure if they will have them. I am definitely not 100% sold on dosing, just kinda at a loss and if i try feeding the live food and it still doesnt eat it or spits it out aswell since it has with so many things. Yeah i never quarantined because when i was researching it i kept seeing about fish dying in quarantine anyways so figured id roll the dice to start and not bother since im not the best at reading fish and thought if i killed them learning to quarantine i would feel terrible.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Pics very fuzzy but this is likely due to poor acclimation, water quality or condition such as flukes.
How did you acclimate fish and for how long?
Did you equalize salinity?
Any unusual behavior such as sudden darting, heavy breathing, unusual swimming behavior?

Some foods to entice it are usually:
Brine shrimp
Mysis shrimp
LRS Fish Frenzy
TDO pellets

Thanks for the quick reply. It is a really bad picture, was hard to get a good one with where he was though. I will try to take another.

I was wondering about water quality but the fact no other fish have symptoms yet made me think otherwise but i have read about high nitrate and some clowns so thought maybe that was it.

When i acclimated him to the main tank and also then the 3 gallon a week later i floated the bag for about 20-30 minutes and then emptied like half the bag water away and slowly poured tank water in until it had close to doubled but did that over only like 5 minutes probably since ive never had issues before doing that and thought clowns were hardy. No unusual swimming, darting, or breathing as far as i can tell other than being listless and staying in place. Usually swims verticle in the corner or slowly in place against the current but not directly facing the pump. I will take a look and see if i can find any lrs or tdo pellets today.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for the quick reply. It is a really bad picture, was hard to get a good one with where he was though. I will try to take another.

I was wondering about water quality but the fact no other fish have symptoms yet made me think otherwise but i have read about high nitrate and some clowns so thought maybe that was it.

When i acclimated him to the main tank and also then the 3 gallon a week later i floated the bag for about 20-30 minutes and then emptied like half the bag water away and slowly poured tank water in until it had close to doubled but did that over only like 5 minutes probably since ive never had issues before doing that and thought clowns were hardy. No unusual swimming, darting, or breathing as far as i can tell other than being listless and staying in place. Usually swims verticle in the corner or slowly in place against the current but not directly facing the pump. I will take a look and see if i can find any lrs or tdo pellets today.

Very inadequate acclimation but there is more to it and pics or video may offer a better clue
Refusing food is concerning and again health or water issue
600 tds is obviously not good and to unit likely high for some time on tds, silicates and other levels

 

[blazin'reefer]

First, you can rule out the water issues with the RO unit, that would not be the cause.

The picture is too fuzzy to see anything, and you would likely notice any issues we would in a picture. A clear video would give me some indication of its breathing rate, and that could help with diagnosis.

Are there other fish in the same tank? How are they doing?

At this point - the fish either came in to you with some disease (as evidenced by the sunken belly and mucus feces, or there was an acclimation issue (like going from a low salinity at the store to a high salinity in your tank).

Here is an article I wrote on fish anorexia:

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

Jay

Thanks Jay, it was definitely worrying me that i was poisoning him due to the ro so its good to know that wasnt it.

I could try to post a video just not exactly sure how since i dont have a youtube channel yet and see most videos on here are from youtube. The clowns breathing for majority of the time i look close almost looks slow if anything so i dont think it is rapid breathing. If its not possible to just post a video on here then i could try counting his breathing for 15 seconds and multiplying by 4 if that might help.

He was in my main 55 display first and all other fish in there seem fine right now knock on wood. I even now have a special needs watchman goby in there with a broken mouth he cant open almost at all that i have to hand feed every day or 2 that has a way better appetite than the clown. The clown is now in a small 3g aio reef by himself.

he apparently was eatting at the store but i havent seen him eat anything substantial. It definitely could be one of those 2. I used to acclimate slower using a dripper but the cats would always mess with it so started doing by hand and never had any issues.

Thanks again, I appreciate the article, i will read threw it asap.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay, it was definitely worrying me that i was poisoning him due to the ro so its good to know that wasnt it.

I could try to post a video just not exactly sure how since i dont have a youtube channel yet and see most videos on here are from youtube. The clowns breathing for majority of the time i look close almost looks slow if anything so i dont think it is rapid breathing. If its not possible to just post a video on here then i could try counting his breathing for 15 seconds and multiplying by 4 if that might help.

He was in my main 55 display first and all other fish in there seem fine right now knock on wood. I even now have a special needs watchman goby in there with a broken mouth he cant open almost at all that i have to hand feed every day or 2 that has a way better appetite than the clown. The clown is now in a small 3g aio reef by himself.

he apparently was eatting at the store but i havent seen him eat anything substantial. It definitely could be one of those 2. I used to acclimate slower using a dripper but the cats would always mess with it so started doing by hand and never had any issues.

Thanks again, I appreciate the article, i will read through it asap.

Fish that take in food, but spit it out is frustrating - they have the inclination to feed, but cannot. Often, it is caused by the wrong type/size of food, but that isn’t the case here. It can also be caused by a mechanical blockage in the fish’s mouth, but again, I don’t see that as being the issue here.
Do you know if the fish was wild caught? If so, wild maroon clowns often arrive with disease issues, especially brooklynella.

Jay

 

[blazin'reefer]

Very inadequate acclimation but there is more to it and pics or video may offer a better clue
Refusing food is concerning and again health or water issue
600 tds is obviously not good and to unit likely high for some time on tds, silicates and other levels

I used to drip acclimate but then the cats got way to close a few times when ever I walked away for a minute, that plus having huge orders and dripping each thing for an hour took insanely long so sometimes i resorted to the less than adequate acclimation and never had any major acclimation issues that i know of but i could have and just not known it was from that. Im not sure how to post a video without having a youtube channel on here but i will post some pictures right now. I am going to do another decent water change in the next few days if he is still alive with more 0tds distilled water so i can be sure im limiting any possible causes incase i had any nutrient spikes. Not sure what to do if its a health issue other than something i can treat for. Yeah its annoying having such dirty tap water, i live in canada too supposedly one of the largest "clean" fw deposits in the world. Makes me wonder what all they are putting in it. Heres some better photos of the clown.

i

 

[blazin'reefer]

Fish that take in food, but spit it out is frustrating - they have the inclination to feed, but cannot. Often, it is caused by the wrong type/size of food, but that isn’t the case here. It can also be caused by a mechanical blockage in the fish’s mouth, but again, I don’t see that as being the issue here.
Do you know if the fish was wild caught? If so, wild maroon clowns often arrive with disease issues, especially brooklynella.

Jay

extremely frustrating, i have tried for hours each day shooting little bits of different stuff near him and spent probably close to 12 hours each day since about the 4th day i got him reading and watching videos about how to entice them to eat. Do you think the live food or lrs or entice with food i have is worth trying aswell or could they be a waste of money since i have tried so many already? Im pretty sure its not size of foods too cause i have tried all sizes and crushed the frozen, flake, and pellets up and nothing. I also dont believe it to be any sort of obstruction as i still see him opening and closing his mouth fine and occasionally coughing very rarely.

I have no clue if he was aquacultured or wild caught, the local lfs never labels which it is but i could ask if i do look for other foods today. If it was brook would he not show some other signs though?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Pics a little fuzzy but looks stable

 

[blazin'reefer]

8-9 days is a relatively short time in your care. On top of the stress of acclimation, being relocated again into the 3gal plus the FW dip that "almost killed him" --- that's a lot of goings-on in a short period, and I'd wager the poor guy is very stressed. A TDS of 450 is insanely high and a 25% water change might also be stressful if the new & old water differ significantly. As I understand ~6mo is an average lifespan for cheaper units/filters but water quality affects their longevity too, even for higher end ones.

Many of the foods you mentioned come in either frozen or dry formulas. Which are you using and which were the LFS using? Are you using the same brand as them?

Personally I would try live food ASAP and before dosing any medications. The fact he's showing any signs of appetence is good and live food is typically the most enticing. Medications are stressful and in my opinion he's already had a stressful few days. Stress is a major immunosuppressant and the more of it he endures, the more susceptible he is to disease. Malnutrition is also an immunosuppressant. Medications can only do so much, especially when the fish's natural immunity is weakened. Clear/white feces can occur with primary malnutrition as well as bacterial disease, so I wouldn't necessarily assume this means parasitic infection; inappropriate medication can also make matters worse. If he wasn't quarantined (it sounds like he wasn't), it's possible he picked up a bug from your display. I'm not a fan of using pharmaceuticals in aquaria if at all avoidable -- especially when etiology is in question -- but someone else can weigh in on this.

also forgot to mention i will do my best to reduce any further stress aswell and hold off on medicating until i have more info if he needs it. Thanks for all of the info aswell magnapinna.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Pics a little fuzzy but looks stable

Thats good to hear he might not be in quite as dire shape as i thought but still a bit hard to see him lasting much longer if he doesnt start to keep something down soon.

 

[Dom]

First, you can rule out the water issues with the RO unit, that would not be the cause.

The picture is too fuzzy to see anything, and you would likely notice any issues we would in a picture. A clear video would give me some indication of its breathing rate, and that could help with diagnosis.

Are there other fish in the same tank? How are they doing?

At this point - the fish either came in to you with some disease (as evidenced by the sunken belly and mucus feces, or there was an acclimation issue (like going from a low salinity at the store to a high salinity in your tank).

Here is an article I wrote on fish anorexia:

Chronic Anorexia in Aquarium Fishes

Don't fall into the trap of assuming the fish will begin feeding when it gets hungry enough, or conclude it must be eating something, just not when you are watching.

reefs.com

Jay

And for me, a bigger concern is that "He was initially put in to my 55 gallon display".

If this is a disease issue, the display tank has been infected.

OP May want to set up a hospital tank and be ready.

 

[blazin'reefer]

And for me, a bigger concern is that "He was initially put in to my 55 gallon display".

If this is a disease issue, the display tank has been infected.

OP May want to set up a hospital tank and be ready.

I have thought about it possibly infecting the display aswell if it is a disease but have been trying to keep that at the back of my mind as a possibility as i dont see any issues in there yet.

I do have a 25-30 gallon cube empty in my room worst case scenario but i accidentally dropped a 1-2lb container of metal bbs on the bottom from the top of it so hope i didnt crack it. Not sure if i should try and fill it up or just clean it and be ready to maybe if i dont see any cracks.

If it was a parasite i wonder how fast the life cycle would be and if it would have forsure spread in a week.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Dom]

I have thought about it possibly infecting the display aswell if it is a disease but have been trying to keep that at the back of my mind as a possibility as i dont see any issues in there yet.

I do have a 25-30 gallon cube empty in my room worst case scenario but i accidentally dropped a 1-2lb container of metal bbs on the bottom from the top of it so hope i didnt crack it. Not sure if i should try and fill it up or just clean it and be ready to maybe if i dont see any cracks.

If it was a parasite i wonder how fast the life cycle would be and if it would have forsure spread in a week.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Don't wait. Get ready now. If you wait for signs of disease to show, it may already be too late.

You can QT in a 5 gallon bucket or a brute can for larger fish.

 

[blazin'reefer]

Don't wait. Get ready now. If you wait for signs of disease to show, it may already be too late.

You can QT in a 5 gallon bucket or a brute can for larger fish.

Yeah i will definitely start to clean the spare tank and take a look if i see anything sketchy around where it fell, brute trash cans are like $100 here i think but also have some large tupperware tote bins around 30 gallons i have kept fish in before. I also do already have a heater and filters i could probably use.

Not sure if i should already fill one of them though since im not sure if it would be something internal, flukes, brook, or some other parasite if it was one and not sure if i would need hypo or hyper or what med i would need forsure since i have never successfully treated saltwater fish before other than them recovering from stuff on there own with good water, fw dips and good feeding with garlic.

 

[Dom]

Yeah i will definitely start to clean the spare tank and take a look if i see anything sketchy around where it fell, brute trash cans are like $100 here i think but also have some large tupperware tote bins around 30 gallons i have kept fish in before. I also do already have a heater and filters i could probably use.

Not sure if i should already fill one of them though since im not sure if it would be something internal, flukes, brook, or some other parasite if it was one and not sure if i would need hypo or hyper or what med i would need forsure since i have never successfully treated saltwater fish before other than them recovering from stuff on there own with good water, fw dips and good feeding with garlic.

It sounds like you have everything you need. I'd get started right away as you need time to get your salinity and temp right, and that can take a day or two.

My position is based on a personal experience of a few weeks ago, where I lost a fish in QT. A timely water change would have saved the fish, but I had nothing ready.

Your better off anticipating the worst case scenario and not needing it.