New Purple Tang in QT need help. Wont stop swimming in sharp circles

Discussion in 'Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis' started by Eredus, May 15, 2019.

  1. rkpetersen

    rkpetersen walked the sand with the crustaceans R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Partner Member 2019 Controller Advisor

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    I QTed a 2 1/2" purple tang in a 10g QT and he did just fine. He's king of the DT now.
    I know that's just one example, but there's one.
     

  2. Shufflepig

    Shufflepig Active Member R2R Supporter 3RMAS Member

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    I respectfully disagree. This fish is totally neurological. It’s eyes are twitching uncontrollably and it continually swims in the same direction. Add the fact that outside stimuli have no effect on the fish and I believe there is no doubt a neurological problem going on
     
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  3. Eredus

    Eredus Member R2R Supporter

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    This video was from about 40 minutes ago. It appeared to be 'lucid', swimming backwards with its eyes twitching:




    This was about 15 minutes afterward:

     
  4. Dom

    Dom Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Is the tank too small or is it neurological? The only way to answer this question is to put it in a bigger QT. If the behavior continues in a 40 gallon, then we have our answer.
     
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  5. FishGuru281

    FishGuru281 Member

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    That's a very scared purple tang. He can see his reflection everywhere and the tank is vastly too small for his size + other fish. He's panicking, not hurt.
     
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  6. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    MB is a good first response antiseptic, it helps very sick fish better use oxygen from the water column and helps ward off bacteria. Is it going to be particularly helpful here? No, probably not. I actually even admitted as much in the exact same post that it was mentioned but... I get what you are saying here.

    Regarding internal parasites causing spinal issues, I disagree. Recently, it’s been found that *some* wrasses (not all, admittedly) that died due to apparent spinal injury were found to have internal Flagellates in the spinal column after necropsy.

    As a last ditch effort, with a fish otherwise doomed with a very bleak prognosis... it might not hurt to try treating for flagellates. Again in this case, not likely... why I said either of these options would be a long-shot at best.

    I also do not believe this to be a panicked tang.... Most “scared” tangs, hide. I had a kole tang that I barely saw for the first 2 weeks he was in QT because as soon as I’d enter the room he’d dart into the PVC.

    I’ve never seen a frightened fish swim in endless circles with it’s eyes twitching and no response to outside stimuli...
     
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  7. Dom

    Dom Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Lets get this guy in a bigger tanks and see what happens.
     
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  8. FishGuru281

    FishGuru281 Member

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    I've quarantined countless tangs and seen this happen countless times in bare bottom tanks and tanks without backgrounds. He flares several times in defense after seeing his reflection in the glass. It's very obvious.

    MB has zero effect on oxygen absorption. It's an antiseptic and it can neutralize cyanide. "Helps ward off bacteria". That's a classic "snake oil" comment. If it warded off bacteria, it would be used to treat bacterial infections. Which is NOT one of its' applications.

    I've seen zero published research (anecdotal is not evidence) that shows internal flagellates in the spinal column. I can't tell you the number of fish I've cut open and I have NEVER seen parasites of any kind in the spinal column.

    Threads like these, with responses like yours, are exactly why people kill their fish in quarantine. The fish needs to be transferred into a larger QT tank and then treated for flukes (IF that's part of your QT process. There are ZERO indications the fish has internal or external parasites/flagellates/"whatever you want to call it to make yourself sound credible").

    Also, you shouldnt be comparing a Bristletooth tang with a Purple. Zebrasoma tangs display incredibly different behavior than their Ctenochaetus "cousins."

    If he's truly not responding to stimuli, why hasn't the original poster shown us a video with the fish ignoring his hand in the tank? ........ Stick a net in that tank. See if he runs from it.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  9. FishGuru281

    FishGuru281 Member

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    You honestly got lucky. And that guy looks way bigger than 2 1/2"...
     
  10. Eredus

    Eredus Member R2R Supporter

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    OK!

    Here is a video at night where the tang still exhibits the exact same behavior as during the day:



    Here is another video as a stimuli test, using my hand the fish repeatedly bumps into my hand as I block its swimming pattern multiple times. I can hold it, pet it, etc. and it doesn't seem to 'notice'. There is one point where I have it block while it is turning and it seems to just go catatonic, but it is still trying to swim right. Just a heads up, this can be hard to watch.

     
  11. LiamPM

    LiamPM Member

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    I’d advise leaving the fish to be and see what happens.... hands in the tank, filming close outside are all stress factors and isn’t helping.... if it is neurological then there isn’t much to be done, if it is stress then leaving him be will help.... either way, leaving him be and hoping is your answer. IMO this is a very stressed, scared fish that doesn’t look to be used to captivity in the slightest.... leave alone and ride it out would be my move
     
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  12. Shufflepig

    Shufflepig Active Member R2R Supporter 3RMAS Member

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    I totally disagree. This fish is exhibiting nystagmus which is the rhythmic twitching of the eyes. He only swims in circles to the right. Have you seen him swim straight or left even when interrupted by a hand? He continues the behavior in the dark (he’s not seeing his reflection in the dark). This fish has a brain injury that may or may not improve. The biggest tank you can buy is not going to cause improvement. If the neurological symptoms are from trauma then time may allow for improvement.
     
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  13. ngoodermuth

    ngoodermuth Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Reef Squad Reef Tank 365 Hospitality Award Build Thread Contributor

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    Nothing that I’ve posted or suggested would lead to people “killing fish in quarantine” for goodness sakes. I spend a lot of my free time (I don’t get paid to be here, do you?) just trying to help people out. I pass along what I’ve learned along the way.

    My specific suggestion here was to DO NOTHING. I only briefly mentioned the other two in passing as the only thing I would even remotely consider as a last-ditch effort, but to do nothing unless the supplier suggests otherwise.

    In my experience, here on R2R and with fish I’ve had in front of me in person... neurological issues generally don’t resolve more often than they do.

    And I’ve had a few zebrasoma tangs as well (they just weren’t as timid as the the kole tang I mentioned) I’ve QT’d them in 10 and 20g bare-bottom tanks and they did not behave like this. This is not normal behavior, IME as a humble hobbyist.

    I’m not going to respond any further to this thread, because anything more just takes away from the OP...and becomes argumentative.

    But, I’m hoping for the best.... I do think it’s probably best to dim the lights and let him be. Maybe sacrifice a piece or two of live rock if you can... rubber band a piece of algae on it... so if he does begin to improve he might try to graze.
     
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  14. Dom

    Dom Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

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    Horizontal Nystagmus is seen in occupations such as a train conductor. Over time, the rhythmic passing of utility poles as the engine travels down the track catches the eye of the conductor as they follow it until it goes beyond the range of their peripheral vision. Over time, this creates the involuntary "bouncing" that we see.

    If the "twitching" we are seeing is Nystagmus, then neurological issues, such as stroke, may be the cause.

    All that being said, I still stand by my first suggestion...

    Put it in a bigger tank and see what happens.
     
  15. Shufflepig

    Shufflepig Active Member R2R Supporter 3RMAS Member

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    But the train conductor isn’t walking in circles to the right constantly. You have to put all the symptoms together and they add up to a neurological injury
     
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  16. BestMomEver

    BestMomEver Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    I’m sorry but this post is a little disrespectful. I don’t know enough about fish diseases to have an opinion on which of you is right or wrong. I do know @ngoodermuth has more knowledge of these things than most anyone I know. And it’s real world, put-in-practice knowledge. I think an apology is needed. Let’s not get personal please.
     
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  17. FishGuru281

    FishGuru281 Member

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    My statements were factual. This post was about helping and correcting incorrect knowledge. I won't apologize for correcting false information. I'm sorry you were offended by facts. Take care.
     
  18. Kattkrazie

    Kattkrazie Active Member

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    We don't get offended by facts. We get offended by offensive comments (which yours were BTW). @ngoodermuth has a stellar track record in helping hobbyists with their fish health. You were out of line in your attack on her. It's actually that simple. You take care!
     
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  19. BestMomEver

    BestMomEver Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2019 Build Thread Contributor

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    No one is offended by facts, only the presentation in which they are offered. There are many, many ways of expressing yourself/giving your opinion without being hurtful and hateful. We would just like you to find one. That’s all...
     
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  20. FlyPenFly

    FlyPenFly Active Member

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    If his reflection is scaring him, why not black out the sides of the tank so it eliminates the mirror effect. Just tape up some construction paper.
     
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