New Purple Tang in QT need help. Wont stop swimming in sharp circles

rkpetersen

walked the sand with the crustaceans
View Badges
Joined
Sep 14, 2017
Messages
3,605
Reaction score
6,127
Location
Near Seattle
I QTed a 2 1/2" purple tang in a 10g QT and he did just fine. He's king of the DT now.
I know that's just one example, but there's one.
 
Corals.com

Shufflepig

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
119
Reaction score
146
Location
Pittsburgh
Neurological conditions usually display themselves with different symptoms than those present in the video. All signs point to a stressed, scared fish. Tangs are known to swim in circles when the tank is too small.
I respectfully disagree. This fish is totally neurological. It’s eyes are twitching uncontrollably and it continually swims in the same direction. Add the fact that outside stimuli have no effect on the fish and I believe there is no doubt a neurological problem going on
 
OP
Eredus

Eredus

Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
66
Reaction score
33
This video was from about 40 minutes ago. It appeared to be 'lucid', swimming backwards with its eyes twitching:



This was about 15 minutes afterward:

 

Dom

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 29, 2016
Messages
2,085
Reaction score
2,000
Location
NY
Is the tank too small or is it neurological? The only way to answer this question is to put it in a bigger QT. If the behavior continues in a 40 gallon, then we have our answer.
 

FishGuru281

Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
13
Reaction score
14
That's a very scared purple tang. He can see his reflection everywhere and the tank is vastly too small for his size + other fish. He's panicking, not hurt.
 
Get Fish & Corals directly for the suppliers

ngoodermuth

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
5,234
Reaction score
12,199
Location
York, PA
Please don't use MB on that fish. There is no indication the fish needs it. There is also no indication of parasites, internal or external. Spinal issues are not a result of internal parasites. Do not treat prophylactically. It causes more harm than good.
MB is a good first response antiseptic, it helps very sick fish better use oxygen from the water column and helps ward off bacteria. Is it going to be particularly helpful here? No, probably not. I actually even admitted as much in the exact same post that it was mentioned but... I get what you are saying here.

Regarding internal parasites causing spinal issues, I disagree. Recently, it’s been found that *some* wrasses (not all, admittedly) that died due to apparent spinal injury were found to have internal Flagellates in the spinal column after necropsy.

As a last ditch effort, with a fish otherwise doomed with a very bleak prognosis... it might not hurt to try treating for flagellates. Again in this case, not likely... why I said either of these options would be a long-shot at best.

I also do not believe this to be a panicked tang.... Most “scared” tangs, hide. I had a kole tang that I barely saw for the first 2 weeks he was in QT because as soon as I’d enter the room he’d dart into the PVC.

I’ve never seen a frightened fish swim in endless circles with it’s eyes twitching and no response to outside stimuli...
 

FishGuru281

Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
13
Reaction score
14
MB is a good first response antiseptic, it helps very sick fish better use oxygen from the water column and helps ward off bacteria. Is it going to be particularly helpful here? No, probably not. I actually even admitted as much in the exact same post that it was mentioned but... I get what you are saying here.

Regarding internal parasites causing spinal issues, I disagree. Recently, it’s been found that *some* wrasses (not all, admittedly) that died due to apparent spinal injury were found to have internal Flagellates in the spinal column after necropsy.

As a last ditch effort, with a fish otherwise doomed with a very bleak prognosis... it might not hurt to try treating for flagellates. Again in this case, not likely... why I said either of these options would be a long-shot at best.

I also do not believe this to be a panicked tang.... Most “scared” tangs, hide. I had a kole tang that I barely saw for the first 2 weeks he was in QT because as soon as I’d enter the room he’d dart into the PVC.

I’ve never seen a frightened fish swim in endless circles with it’s eyes twitching and no response to outside stimuli...

I've quarantined countless tangs and seen this happen countless times in bare bottom tanks and tanks without backgrounds. He flares several times in defense after seeing his reflection in the glass. It's very obvious.

MB has zero effect on oxygen absorption. It's an antiseptic and it can neutralize cyanide. "Helps ward off bacteria". That's a classic "snake oil" comment. If it warded off bacteria, it would be used to treat bacterial infections. Which is NOT one of its' applications.

I've seen zero published research (anecdotal is not evidence) that shows internal flagellates in the spinal column. I can't tell you the number of fish I've cut open and I have NEVER seen parasites of any kind in the spinal column.

Threads like these, with responses like yours, are exactly why people kill their fish in quarantine. The fish needs to be transferred into a larger QT tank and then treated for flukes (IF that's part of your QT process. There are ZERO indications the fish has internal or external parasites/flagellates/"whatever you want to call it to make yourself sound credible").

Also, you shouldnt be comparing a Bristletooth tang with a Purple. Zebrasoma tangs display incredibly different behavior than their Ctenochaetus "cousins."

If he's truly not responding to stimuli, why hasn't the original poster shown us a video with the fish ignoring his hand in the tank? ........ Stick a net in that tank. See if he runs from it.
 
Last edited:

FishGuru281

Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
13
Reaction score
14
I QTed a 2 1/2" purple tang in a 10g QT and he did just fine. He's king of the DT now.
I know that's just one example, but there's one.
You honestly got lucky. And that guy looks way bigger than 2 1/2"...
 
OP
Eredus

Eredus

Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
66
Reaction score
33
OK!

Here is a video at night where the tang still exhibits the exact same behavior as during the day:


Here is another video as a stimuli test, using my hand the fish repeatedly bumps into my hand as I block its swimming pattern multiple times. I can hold it, pet it, etc. and it doesn't seem to 'notice'. There is one point where I have it block while it is turning and it seems to just go catatonic, but it is still trying to swim right. Just a heads up, this can be hard to watch.

 

LiamPM

Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2016
Messages
17
Reaction score
12
I’d advise leaving the fish to be and see what happens.... hands in the tank, filming close outside are all stress factors and isn’t helping.... if it is neurological then there isn’t much to be done, if it is stress then leaving him be will help.... either way, leaving him be and hoping is your answer. IMO this is a very stressed, scared fish that doesn’t look to be used to captivity in the slightest.... leave alone and ride it out would be my move
 

Shufflepig

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
119
Reaction score
146
Location
Pittsburgh
I totally disagree. This fish is exhibiting nystagmus which is the rhythmic twitching of the eyes. He only swims in circles to the right. Have you seen him swim straight or left even when interrupted by a hand? He continues the behavior in the dark (he’s not seeing his reflection in the dark). This fish has a brain injury that may or may not improve. The biggest tank you can buy is not going to cause improvement. If the neurological symptoms are from trauma then time may allow for improvement.
 

ngoodermuth

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
5,234
Reaction score
12,199
Location
York, PA
I've quarantined countless tangs and seen this happen countless times in bare bottom tanks and tanks without backgrounds. He flares several times in defense after seeing his reflection in the glass. It's very obvious.

MB has zero effect on oxygen absorption. It's an antiseptic and it can neutralize cyanide. "Helps ward off bacteria". That's a classic "snake oil" comment. If it warded off bacteria, it would be used to treat bacterial infections. Which is NOT one of its' applications.

I've seen zero published research (anecdotal is not evidence) that shows internal flagellates in the spinal column. I can't tell you the number of fish I've cut open and I have NEVER seen parasites of any kind in the spinal column.

Threads like these, with responses like yours, are exactly why people kill their fish in quarantine. The fish needs to be transferred into a larger QT tank and then treated for flukes (IF that's part of your QT process. There are ZERO indications the fish has internal or external parasites/flagellates/"whatever you want to call it to make yourself sound credible").

Also, you shouldnt be comparing a Bristletooth tang with a Purple. Zebrasoma tangs display incredibly different behavior than their Ctenochaetus "cousins."

If he's truly not responding to stimuli, why hasn't the original poster shown us a video with the fish ignoring his hand in the tank? ........ Stick a net in that tank. See if he runs from it.
Nothing that I’ve posted or suggested would lead to people “killing fish in quarantine” for goodness sakes. I spend a lot of my free time (I don’t get paid to be here, do you?) just trying to help people out. I pass along what I’ve learned along the way.

My specific suggestion here was to DO NOTHING. I only briefly mentioned the other two in passing as the only thing I would even remotely consider as a last-ditch effort, but to do nothing unless the supplier suggests otherwise.

In my experience, here on R2R and with fish I’ve had in front of me in person... neurological issues generally don’t resolve more often than they do.

And I’ve had a few zebrasoma tangs as well (they just weren’t as timid as the the kole tang I mentioned) I’ve QT’d them in 10 and 20g bare-bottom tanks and they did not behave like this. This is not normal behavior, IME as a humble hobbyist.

I’m not going to respond any further to this thread, because anything more just takes away from the OP...and becomes argumentative.

But, I’m hoping for the best.... I do think it’s probably best to dim the lights and let him be. Maybe sacrifice a piece or two of live rock if you can... rubber band a piece of algae on it... so if he does begin to improve he might try to graze.
 

Dom

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 29, 2016
Messages
2,085
Reaction score
2,000
Location
NY
I totally disagree. This fish is exhibiting nystagmus which is the rhythmic twitching of the eyes. He only swims in circles to the right. Have you seen him swim straight or left even when interrupted by a hand? He continues the behavior in the dark (he’s not seeing his reflection in the dark). This fish has a brain injury that may or may not improve. The biggest tank you can buy is not going to cause improvement. If the neurological symptoms are from trauma then time may allow for improvement.
Horizontal Nystagmus is seen in occupations such as a train conductor. Over time, the rhythmic passing of utility poles as the engine travels down the track catches the eye of the conductor as they follow it until it goes beyond the range of their peripheral vision. Over time, this creates the involuntary "bouncing" that we see.

If the "twitching" we are seeing is Nystagmus, then neurological issues, such as stroke, may be the cause.

All that being said, I still stand by my first suggestion...

Put it in a bigger tank and see what happens.
 

Shufflepig

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 18, 2018
Messages
119
Reaction score
146
Location
Pittsburgh
Horizontal Nystagmus is seen in occupations such as a train conductor. Over time, the rhythmic passing of utility poles as the engine travels down the track catches the eye of the conductor as they follow it until it goes beyond the range of their peripheral vision. Over time, this creates the involuntary "bouncing" that we see.

If the "twitching" we are seeing is Nystagmus, then neurological issues, such as stroke, may be the cause.

All that being said, I still stand by my first suggestion...

Put it in a bigger tank and see what happens.
But the train conductor isn’t walking in circles to the right constantly. You have to put all the symptoms together and they add up to a neurological injury
 
Top Shelf Aquatics

BestMomEver

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
2,971
Reaction score
5,624
Location
Lower Alabama
I've quarantined countless tangs and seen this happen countless times in bare bottom tanks and tanks without backgrounds. He flares several times in defense after seeing his reflection in the glass. It's very obvious.

MB has zero effect on oxygen absorption. It's an antiseptic and it can neutralize cyanide. "Helps ward off bacteria". That's a classic "snake oil" comment. If it warded off bacteria, it would be used to treat bacterial infections. Which is NOT one of its' applications.

I've seen zero published research (anecdotal is not evidence) that shows internal flagellates in the spinal column. I can't tell you the number of fish I've cut open and I have NEVER seen parasites of any kind in the spinal column.

Threads like these, with responses like yours, are exactly why people kill their fish in quarantine. The fish needs to be transferred into a larger QT tank and then treated for flukes (IF that's part of your QT process. There are ZERO indications the fish has internal or external parasites/flagellates/"whatever you want to call it to make yourself sound credible").

Also, you shouldnt be comparing a Bristletooth tang with a Purple. Zebrasoma tangs display incredibly different behavior than their Ctenochaetus "cousins."

If he's truly not responding to stimuli, why hasn't the original poster shown us a video with the fish ignoring his hand in the tank? ........ Stick a net in that tank. See if he runs from it.
I’m sorry but this post is a little disrespectful. I don’t know enough about fish diseases to have an opinion on which of you is right or wrong. I do know @ngoodermuth has more knowledge of these things than most anyone I know. And it’s real world, put-in-practice knowledge. I think an apology is needed. Let’s not get personal please.
 

FishGuru281

Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
13
Reaction score
14
I’m sorry but this post is a little disrespectful. I don’t know enough about fish diseases to have an opinion on which of you is right or wrong. I do know @ngoodermuth has more knowledge of these things than most anyone I know. And it’s real world, put-in-practice knowledge. I think an apology is needed. Let’s not get personal please.
My statements were factual. This post was about helping and correcting incorrect knowledge. I won't apologize for correcting false information. I'm sorry you were offended by facts. Take care.
 

Kattkrazie

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
May 24, 2018
Messages
405
Reaction score
824
Location
Moore, Oklahoma
My statements were factual. This post was about helping and correcting incorrect knowledge. I won't apologize for correcting false information. I'm sorry you were offended by facts. Take care.
We don't get offended by facts. We get offended by offensive comments (which yours were BTW). @ngoodermuth has a stellar track record in helping hobbyists with their fish health. You were out of line in your attack on her. It's actually that simple. You take care!
 

BestMomEver

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
2,971
Reaction score
5,624
Location
Lower Alabama
My statements were factual. This post was about helping and correcting incorrect knowledge. I won't apologize for correcting false information. I'm sorry you were offended by facts. Take care.
No one is offended by facts, only the presentation in which they are offered. There are many, many ways of expressing yourself/giving your opinion without being hurtful and hateful. We would just like you to find one. That’s all...
 
Corals.com

Do you want to win a GHL ProfiLux 4 Controller Ultimate set?

  • Yes I need a controller

    Votes: 99 54.1%
  • Yes I would like to try this controller

    Votes: 59 32.2%
  • No I'm not going to be an early bird partner member

    Votes: 25 13.7%

Online statistics

Members online
532
Guests online
2,025
Total visitors
2,557
Top Shelf Aquatics
Budman's Corals LLC
Top