New Tank Process for Avoiding Diseases as Much as Possible

jda

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I don't want to debate QT vs not. This advice is for the people who will not, do not want to or are not sure if they will ever be able to QT correctly, which is probably well over 90% of the people out there.

For fish to thrive, they need to feel safe and secure. Fish diseases also need to fight for their lives in as inhospitable of a place as possible. Inverts can bring in fish diseases too.

If you are not going follow a 100% QT regiment for all fish, corals and inverts, then these things can really help your chances to save fish lives and save you money.

First, start your tank with real live rock from the ocean. This rock will have microfauna that will eat disease tomonts when they fall off of the fish during the life cycle - large and small pod, worms, starfish, etc.
Second, use a substrate. While live sand is not always possible, the microfauna on the live rock will populate the sandbed in time. You want worms, pods, snails and all other manner of critters popping out of the substrate to much on a nice meal that just landed nearby.
Third, do not make caves, arches or other bonsai structures - these are not good for fish. Fish need to have tight spaces to escape, feel totally secure and to get away from things. Just stack up rock so that the fish can totally leave your sight.
Fourth, start with captive fish. These fish are used to the unique living style of tanks and are good fish to start with. They can also teach new fish to eat things that they have never seen before - even mysis and brine shrimp are not floating around reefs out there and are from inland lakes.
Fifth, understand that your new fish might have a different feeding style at first. Some fish pick, some only eat from the water column, etc. Your new fish is a week from swimming in the ocean, so if you have a planktivore, then turn the pumps off and dump in tiny amounts of food every minute for ten minutes. If you have a picker, then allow the food to sink to the bottom or on the rocks for the fish to pick off. Eventually, most fish adapt, but this can take time.
Sixth, avoid most wild fish until the microfauna from your live rock has spread to the rest of the tank.
Seventh, assume that NOBODY has done a well enough job of QT on your new fish. Nobody. Always assume that diseases are possible unless you QT yourself. ...so expect diseases.

Avoid sterile tanks which can be like petri dishes for fish diseases to multiply. I know that live rock can cost more, but how much is anybody saving over dead/dry rock when their new Naso Tang and Regal Angelfish die of ich in a tank with no microfauna to help with control disease? Bottled bacteria and pods do not add the kind of things necessary to

Don't underestimate how much caves and arches can stress fish if they cannot get into a crack or crevice somewhere to hide. Fish should not be stressed out or darting around the tank at all - they should not be spooked.

None of this leads to a disease-free tank. It is just a way to help, but it can really help a lot. If you are not going to set up a coral QT for inverts and corals, then chances are that you are going to get diseases into your tank anyway, so why not help the fish as much as possible even if you do some level of QT.

If anybody is wondering if there is any precedent for this, just go back to some of the message boards from older times. Most of these tanks started with live rock and nearly nobody QT'd any fish. The old advice was to wait 6 months for your expensive fish. The idea is that the tank parameters were mature by then and the fish had an easier time - while this is true, this is also the time that the fauna from the rock had spread all over the tank and could help with diseases.

In the end, I feel that the caves and arches bonsai structure of many modern reefs along with the lack of biodiversity from using dry rock are some make fish disease more of an issue than ever. Use live rock and stack it up.
 

piranhaman00

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My QT process which has never failed; ( although I can’t be sure of any diseases in the first place)

Salinity, match incoming bag, temp 82F
Day 1: Cu= 2.5ppm, full dose prazi pro
Day 7: full dose prazi pro, adjust salinity 50% higher towards DT, watch Cu
Day 12-14: move to freshwater dip for 5 mins, move to DT, regardless of salinity, match temp

My theory is little as time as possible in a QT tank, get into DT asap. Nothing can reinfect with Cu, fresh dip to remove all Cu water from fish.

No problems for me! Only 1 tank, short time needed!

And yes live rock!
 

sc50964

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My QT process which has never failed; ( although I can’t be sure of any diseases in the first place)

Salinity, match incoming bag, temp 82F
Day 1: Cu= 2.5ppm, full dose prazi pro
Day 7: full dose prazi pro, adjust salinity 50% higher towards DT, watch Cu
Day 12-14: move to freshwater dip for 5 mins, move to DT, regardless of salinity, match temp

My theory is little as time as possible in a QT tank, get into DT asap. Nothing can reinfect with Cu, fresh dip to remove all Cu water from fish.

No problems for me! Only 1 tank, short time needed!

And yes live rock!
do you not get a bacteria bloom when you mix copper & Prazipro & increase the likelihood of bacterial infection?
 

sc50964

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I don't want to debate QT vs not. This advice is for the people who will not, do not want to or are not sure if they will ever be able to QT correctly, which is probably well over 90% of the people out there.

For fish to thrive, they need to feel safe and secure. Fish diseases also need to fight for their lives in as inhospitable of a place as possible. Inverts can bring in fish diseases too.

If you are not going follow a 100% QT regiment for all fish, corals and inverts, then these things can really help your chances to save fish lives and save you money.

First, start your tank with real live rock from the ocean. This rock will have microfauna that will eat disease tomonts when they fall off of the fish during the life cycle - large and small pod, worms, starfish, etc.
Second, use a substrate. While live sand is not always possible, the microfauna on the live rock will populate the sandbed in time. You want worms, pods, snails and all other manner of critters popping out of the substrate to much on a nice meal that just landed nearby.
Third, do not make caves, arches or other bonsai structures - these are not good for fish. Fish need to have tight spaces to escape, feel totally secure and to get away from things. Just stack up rock so that the fish can totally leave your sight.
Fourth, start with captive fish. These fish are used to the unique living style of tanks and are good fish to start with. They can also teach new fish to eat things that they have never seen before - even mysis and brine shrimp are not floating around reefs out there and are from inland lakes.
Fifth, understand that your new fish might have a different feeding style at first. Some fish pick, some only eat from the water column, etc. Your new fish is a week from swimming in the ocean, so if you have a planktivore, then turn the pumps off and dump in tiny amounts of food every minute for ten minutes. If you have a picker, then allow the food to sink to the bottom or on the rocks for the fish to pick off. Eventually, most fish adapt, but this can take time.
Sixth, avoid most wild fish until the microfauna from your live rock has spread to the rest of the tank.
Seventh, assume that NOBODY has done a well enough job of QT on your new fish. Nobody. Always assume that diseases are possible unless you QT yourself. ...so expect diseases.

Avoid sterile tanks which can be like petri dishes for fish diseases to multiply. I know that live rock can cost more, but how much is anybody saving over dead/dry rock when their new Naso Tang and Regal Angelfish die of ich in a tank with no microfauna to help with control disease? Bottled bacteria and pods do not add the kind of things necessary to

Don't underestimate how much caves and arches can stress fish if they cannot get into a crack or crevice somewhere to hide. Fish should not be stressed out or darting around the tank at all - they should not be spooked.

None of this leads to a disease-free tank. It is just a way to help, but it can really help a lot. If you are not going to set up a coral QT for inverts and corals, then chances are that you are going to get diseases into your tank anyway, so why not help the fish as much as possible even if you do some level of QT.

If anybody is wondering if there is any precedent for this, just go back to some of the message boards from older times. Most of these tanks started with live rock and nearly nobody QT'd any fish. The old advice was to wait 6 months for your expensive fish. The idea is that the tank parameters were mature by then and the fish had an easier time - while this is true, this is also the time that the fauna from the rock had spread all over the tank and could help with diseases.

In the end, I feel that the caves and arches bonsai structure of many modern reefs along with the lack of biodiversity from using dry rock are some make fish disease more of an issue than ever. Use live rock and stack it up.
Thanks. Learned something new today.
 

paragrouper

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I generally followed this when I started my tank last December. Most of my rock was live rock, although I had to supplement with a bit of dry rock to fill it out. Neither my wife or I are great a aquascaping, so we stacked everything up And called it good.

My fish are either captive bred or aquarium conditioned (those came from seahorse savvy).

Thus far I only have had one clown who developed a bacterial infection (he’s better now) and a McCoskers wrasse who developed an unknown neurological disorder That @Jay Hemdal has posted about (He passed).
 

Jay Hemdal

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I don't want to debate QT vs not. This advice is for the people who will not, do not want to or are not sure if they will ever be able to QT correctly, which is probably well over 90% of the people out there.

For fish to thrive, they need to feel safe and secure. Fish diseases also need to fight for their lives in as inhospitable of a place as possible. Inverts can bring in fish diseases too.

If you are not going follow a 100% QT regiment for all fish, corals and inverts, then these things can really help your chances to save fish lives and save you money.

First, start your tank with real live rock from the ocean. This rock will have microfauna that will eat disease tomonts when they fall off of the fish during the life cycle - large and small pod, worms, starfish, etc.
Second, use a substrate. While live sand is not always possible, the microfauna on the live rock will populate the sandbed in time. You want worms, pods, snails and all other manner of critters popping out of the substrate to much on a nice meal that just landed nearby.
Third, do not make caves, arches or other bonsai structures - these are not good for fish. Fish need to have tight spaces to escape, feel totally secure and to get away from things. Just stack up rock so that the fish can totally leave your sight.
Fourth, start with captive fish. These fish are used to the unique living style of tanks and are good fish to start with. They can also teach new fish to eat things that they have never seen before - even mysis and brine shrimp are not floating around reefs out there and are from inland lakes.
Fifth, understand that your new fish might have a different feeding style at first. Some fish pick, some only eat from the water column, etc. Your new fish is a week from swimming in the ocean, so if you have a planktivore, then turn the pumps off and dump in tiny amounts of food every minute for ten minutes. If you have a picker, then allow the food to sink to the bottom or on the rocks for the fish to pick off. Eventually, most fish adapt, but this can take time.
Sixth, avoid most wild fish until the microfauna from your live rock has spread to the rest of the tank.
Seventh, assume that NOBODY has done a well enough job of QT on your new fish. Nobody. Always assume that diseases are possible unless you QT yourself. ...so expect diseases.

Avoid sterile tanks which can be like petri dishes for fish diseases to multiply. I know that live rock can cost more, but how much is anybody saving over dead/dry rock when their new Naso Tang and Regal Angelfish die of ich in a tank with no microfauna to help with control disease? Bottled bacteria and pods do not add the kind of things necessary to

Don't underestimate how much caves and arches can stress fish if they cannot get into a crack or crevice somewhere to hide. Fish should not be stressed out or darting around the tank at all - they should not be spooked.

None of this leads to a disease-free tank. It is just a way to help, but it can really help a lot. If you are not going to set up a coral QT for inverts and corals, then chances are that you are going to get diseases into your tank anyway, so why not help the fish as much as possible even if you do some level of QT.

If anybody is wondering if there is any precedent for this, just go back to some of the message boards from older times. Most of these tanks started with live rock and nearly nobody QT'd any fish. The old advice was to wait 6 months for your expensive fish. The idea is that the tank parameters were mature by then and the fish had an easier time - while this is true, this is also the time that the fauna from the rock had spread all over the tank and could help with diseases.

In the end, I feel that the caves and arches bonsai structure of many modern reefs along with the lack of biodiversity from using dry rock are some make fish disease more of an issue than ever. Use live rock and stack it up.


Do you have any references for the idea that using live rock actually reduces diseases?
LR has been demonstrated to actually bring in some parasites (Cirolanid isopods for example).

While the microbiome of an aquarium is important in terms of overall stability, most of that is bacterial, with some protozoans.

We see a lot of problems with people trying to treat diseases, or quarantine fish in brand new systems. That is usually a mistake, but for a different reason - lack of nitrifying bacteria.

I used to manage many thousands of gallons of quarantine systems from 10 to 12,000 gallons. None had a an extensive microbiome aside from the nitrifiers. Hiding places were just cut PVC pipes. They worked great!

Jay
 
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jda

jda

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Those also had professionals looking after them and wee QT systems not reef tanks. I am not taking about QT systems. I am talking about the folks who will never QT or never get it right if they do.

There is evidence, including some that you have mentioned in the past, that fauna do eat ich tomonts.
 

vetteguy53081

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Regarding Fauna, I too am wondering of references or data showing this. Perhaps true with fluke eggs but to eradicate disease is a first for me. Not doubting but again, new to me. I have 44 fish and have caves and archs and not a single issue with fish stress or well being.
 

sc50964

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If the rock scape only contains those arches with large opening and closed caves while the rest of the rock formation offering no path for fish to swim through to escape aggression, then that’s an issue.
 

PeterErc

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I don’t know, wholesalers are breeding grounds for brooklynella, oodinium,and uroema. The doctor at a LFS that would quarantine and treat fish, as well as go to wholesalers and fish stores to educate on proper treatments. He was always treating tanks for something and looking under the scope to see what disease is in the detritus on the bottom of the tank. I believe it was uroema that he believed was becoming antibiotic resistant. Don’t forget about fish harvested with cyanide. They eat for a few weeks then die because the cyanide damages the liver.
I do agree, having a stable healthy environment for fish to thrive is key to success.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Those also had professionals looking after them and wee QT systems not reef tanks. I am not taking about QT systems. I am talking about the folks who will never QT or never get it right if they do.

There is evidence, including some that you have mentioned in the past, that fauna do eat ich tomonts.

Established reef tanks have many things that can reduce disease propagules, but reduction is not elimination. Protein skimmers, run wet, export POC which includes theronts. Filter feeding inverts remove POC, which if they don't eat directly, get killed and exported as pseudo feces. Trouble is, none of those routes will eliminate active infections.

In aquariums, propagule pressure is SO great for these diseases, that a reduction in them just doesn't stop an active disease. It has been demonstrated that a single Neobenedenia egg can start an infection. Time after time, diatom filters have failed to cure disease - because they simply cannot remove all the propagules in time and they still reinfect the fish.


Jay
 

exnisstech

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Just speculation on my part as I'm not qualified to participate in a discussion about fish disease.
I think @jda method helps makes fish more resistant to disease vs eliminating the disease. It's sounds very similar to how Paul B runs his tank. Strong fish with a healthy immune system stand a good chance of fighting off disease. It's like the old what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger saying.
Nothing wrong with QTing all fish and medicating for prevention if that's what you choose to do. Many fish die in QT but many fish die in displays from the introduction of disease from improper QT methods or fish that were not QTd at all. Its a choice people have to make and jda is offering his/her opinion on an alterative to QT. I'm leaning away from medicated QT and have a fish currently in observation only QT in a tank with live rock that has been in my system for years. I don't have to worry about ammonia buildup, I just watch and try to get them eating I'll watch the fish and if I see no signs of disease after 30 days minimum I'll move it to the display. I will however not put a fish into my display that I have not at least observed in a seperate tank. One round of velvet through a 180g and 150g that shared a sump taught me that.
 

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I am no expert in fish disease, but I have QT all my fish because a run in with velvet in the past. I am a big proponent for QT because of this, but I think @jda was pretty clear on how his recommendations are on how to help those that are refusing or can't QT. Not sure why we have people coming into this thread arguing for QT, when we all know a majority of hobbyist don't QT, that's why there are all those snake oil remedies out there for when you get disease into the tank.

All the fish disease expert are arguing for eliminating or preventing disease in a tank while others like Paul B or JDA here is talking about disease management in the tank. It's like going into a thread with people talking about apples and you come in arguing about oranges and saying its all fruit so its the same argument. LOL.
 

Babyface63

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My QT process which has never failed; ( although I can’t be sure of any diseases in the first place)

Salinity, match incoming bag, temp 82F
Day 1: Cu= 2.5ppm, full dose prazi pro
Day 7: full dose prazi pro, adjust salinity 50% higher towards DT, watch Cu
Day 12-14: move to freshwater dip for 5 mins, move to DT, regardless of salinity, match temp

My theory is little as time as possible in a QT tank, get into DT asap. Nothing can reinfect with Cu, fresh dip to remove all Cu water from fish.

No problems for me! Only 1 tank, short time needed!

And yes live rock!
What is Cu?
 

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