Next reefing innovation?

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There is already a dialysis machine for aquariums. Just dump in the salt it pulls everything out of the water and replaces it with the new salt.

I think it is around 5 grand.
Look at the ocean creator on this site.

https://seavisions.com/dialyseas/

I do not believe this technology is useful at any price. It’s far less efficient at doing the same thing a water change does far more efficiently.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I had never heard of this. Extremely interesting concept. But after you mentioned it, I went looking and found this very interesting experiment article.

https://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/pr/index.php

I strongly disagree that the dislyseas or any dialysis type of device has any utility for a reef tank that cannot be done better and cheaper by simple water change.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think the next big frontier is understanding the roles and populations and locations and impacts of the many microorganisms in a reef tank. It’s a huge challenge and I don’t expect answers to come quickly, but if and when it does, I can imagine there are lots of useful things to learn. Current technology is taking small steps in this direction, but there’s a long way to go.

 

[RWReefer]

I think the next big frontier is understanding the roles and populations and locations and impacts of the many microorganisms in a reef tank. It’s a huge challenge and I don’t expect answers to come quickly, but if and when it does, I can imagine there are lots of useful things to learn. Current technology is taking small steps in this direction, but there’s a long way to go.

Sort of bacteria X primarily hosts itself at location Y to perform task Z?

 

[TheLegendaryBarlowe072]

I strongly disagree that the dislyseas or any dialysis type of device has any utility for a reef tank that

I strongly disagree that the dislyseas or any dialysis type of device has any utility for a reef tank that cannot be done better and cheaper by simple water change.

This is a quote from the conclusion portion of the article I posted. Seems to imply the same thing. I’ve included some of my thoughts after

“I am less favorably inclined toward the value of its dialysis-based purification capability, despite the fact that this purification function appears to be the primary selling point advertised by Seavisions. The data support the conclusion that the Dialyseas can, in fact, deplete the aquarium water of undesired contaminants without causing ionic imbalances in other desirable water components. However, the concentrations of undesirable metabolites (ammonium, nitrate, nitrite, phosphate, etc.) that it removes are typically so low in a mature reef tank under standard operating conditions that the extra purification by the dialysis process seems, perhaps, to be overkill. On the other hand, the concurrent removal of desirable solutes, in particular calcium, seems like a big downside as it places added pressure on the calcium input devices (Dialyseas concentrated salt solution, Nilsen reactor, calcium reactor, others?) to keep up.”

However, I think this is still very interesting and could possibly be improved. Right now it appears this process is using only using RODI to diffuse contaminants across the dialysis membrane. If some sort of premade dialysate fluid was used similar how actual hemo dialysis is performed, you could remove harmful contaminants with out affecting beneficial ions.

There doesn’t seem to be enough interest in these machines tho to see any innovations, and it appears seavisions is basically a one man operation.
Also the individual cost of components used doesn’t seem to justify the overall cost of these machines. (The dialysis membrane is $59 dollars, the rest of the machine is an RODI and an analog controller and analog timer). The unit actually cost $3000.


However in its current form this machines use of salinity probe and supersaturated salt mixing does seem to show that a setup like @Fenral ‘s DIY is absolutely viable for automated water changes

 

[cilyjr]

I do not believe this technology is useful at any price. It’s far less efficient at doing the same thing a water change does far more efficiently.

I know nothing about it, except it exists.

@reefkeeper2 had one on that 500 gallon tank in the solarium. He used it until it broke then decided it was not worth the cost I think.

 

[Paul B]

I have a vastly different view on this. I don't have a lot of spare time so technology is a way to reduce tank maintenance and chores which leaves me more time to actually enjoy my tank. Fully automated waterchanges for example. What is romantic or fun about dragging buckets around right?

It depends on the maintenance we do. I do use a DIY top off device and a $7.00 timer to turn the lights on. But I still have to clean the glass, clean the top of the skimmer even though it is connected to a sewer and feed the fish. Maybe yearly I change the resins in my RO/DI and replace the pre filters.

If you do fully automated water changes, you still have to get or mix the water from someplace. I use pumps to change water which I only do 4 or 5 times a year and that only takes about 10 or 15 minutes. I don't think automation will make that faster or more efficient. I don't use buckets.

I do raise and feed worms and I still have to feed the worms and clean their dirt every two or three months.
I don't use any dry foods so I have to put their frozen food in a container to thaw, then feed, but I like to do that.

I spend very little time on maintenance and 95% of the time, just enjoying my tank.. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Technology will not change that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This is a quote from the conclusion portion of the article I posted. Seems to imply the same thing. I’ve included some of my thoughts after

“I am less favorably inclined toward the value of its dialysis-based purification capability, despite the fact that this purification function appears to be the primary selling point advertised by Seavisions. The data support the conclusion that the Dialyseas can, in fact, deplete the aquarium water of undesired contaminants without causing ionic imbalances in other desirable water components. However, the concentrations of undesirable metabolites (ammonium, nitrate, nitrite, phosphate, etc.) that it removes are typically so low in a mature reef tank under standard operating conditions that the extra purification by the dialysis process seems, perhaps, to be overkill. On the other hand, the concurrent removal of desirable solutes, in particular calcium, seems like a big downside as it places added pressure on the calcium input devices (Dialyseas concentrated salt solution, Nilsen reactor, calcium reactor, others?) to keep up.”

However, I think this is still very interesting and could possibly be improved. Right now it appears this process is using only using RODI to diffuse contaminants across the dialysis membrane. If some sort of premade dialysate fluid was used similar how actual hemo dialysis is performed, you could remove harmful contaminants with out affecting beneficial ions.

There doesn’t seem to be enough interest in these machines tho to see any innovations, and it appears seavisions is basically a one man operation.
Also the individual cost of components used doesn’t seem to justify the overall cost of these machines. (The dialysis membrane is $59 dollars, the rest of the machine is an RODI and an analog controller and analog timer). The unit actually cost $3000.


However in its current form this machines use of salinity probe and supersaturated salt mixing does seem to show that a setup like @Fenral ‘s DIY is absolutely viable for automated water changes

I helped review this article and technology years ago when it first was done (acknowledged in the linked paper). I personally see no use for it that a water change cannot do much better. I know quite a lot about how dialysis works, having invented a widely used drug for dialysis patients that makes up for shortcomings of human dialysis, and I see no scenario where I would use it.

It is far less efficient than water changes, and that is easy to prove.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Another big frontier is the organic compounds in the water. What they are, what roles they play, and how they positively or negatively impact reef aquaria. Like trace elements, except with far more individual molecules involved.

 

[Fenral]

Another big frontier is the organic compounds in the water. What they are, what times they play, and how they positively or negatively impact reef aquaria. Like trace elements, except with far more individual molecules involved.

If only we had that kinda data available - I think it would be huge.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Sort of bacteria X primarily hosts itself at location Y to perform task Z?

Yes, although it may be much more complicated than that, with some bacteria and their functions being beneficial in some scenarios and detrimental in others.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

I feel we focus on technology way to much in this hobby already and less and less on common sense so we can keep everything healthy with no medications and have no need for our interference as the fish already know how to stay healthy as long as we keep out of their way.

I think the next big thing in this hobby is learning how to go about that. Technology is driven by money to be made but your fish don't usually care how much you spend on your tank.

Agreed. With the fast revolving door this hobby has with people in and then out, there is very little continuity. That allows marketing to do and say whatever they want as long as there's a hint of logic in the way it's presented.

Case and point, "technology eliminates the mundane chores so that I can enjoy my tank". Although, there is truth to that, there's also the element of keeping things simple, why do we need to have all this equipment that needs servicing when, in reality, we can do without?

 

[Wasabiroot]

Yes, although it may be much more complicated than that, with some bacteria and their functions being beneficial in some scenarios and detrimental in others.

Perhaps I am out of the loop (spoiler alert: yes) but while I think bacteria and their role in reef tanks is a new frontier, I also think we (or some) are vastly underestimating/underrepresenting the complexity of the coral holobiont (which is a relatively recent discovery and body of knowledge.)

This ^^ is not something that can be reduced to a bar graph to take action on, not yet imo. Salem Clemens and others are actively working in this area and their knowledge base vastly exceeds my own, but right now bacterial testing just feels like ICP in different clothing, with even less direct, actionable advice associated with it. Not to mention the ocean is riddled with viruses who play an important role regulating marine biomass and they aren't even considered/mentioned. The flip side is that as our knowledge of pathogens in the reef becomes more solidified, we are able to hold companies accountable who include harmful strains in their products,

That doesn't mean this area isn't promising, but I think I need to see a lot more data before I feel confident in its utility for the average reefkeeper. Don't let me yuck anyone's yum though re bacteria.

 

[argiBK]

Automated testing combined with truly adaptive dosing is something technology should be able to unlock.

Really interested to see if the Hydros ecosystem (b/c of Maven) can achieve this: measure and then balance and maintain optimal trace elements based on nitrate and phosphate levels.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Perhaps I am out of the loop (spoiler alert: yes) but while I think bacteria and their role in reef tanks is a new frontier, I also think we (or some) are vastly underestimating/underrepresenting the complexity of the coral holobiont (which is a relatively recent discovery and body of knowledge.)

This ^^ is not something that can be reduced to a bar graph to take action on, not yet imo. Salem Clemens and others are actively working in this area and their knowledge base vastly exceeds my own, but right now bacterial testing just feels like ICP in different clothing, with even less direct, actionable advice associated with it. Not to mention the ocean is riddled with viruses who play an important role regulating marine biomass and they aren't even considered/mentioned. The flip side is that as our knowledge of pathogens in the reef becomes more solidified, we are able to hold companies accountable who include harmful strains in their products,

That doesn't mean this area isn't promising, but I think I need to see a lot more data before I feel confident in its utility for the average reefkeeper. Don't let me yuck anyone's yum though re bacteria.

I agree that it is super complex which is why I said it has a long way to go. :)

 

[Wasabiroot]

I agree that it is super complex which is why I said it has a long way to go. :)

For sure! Sorry, not trying to mischaracterize your arguments. I have a bad habit of cramming all the thread comments together into one vague idea

 

[Fenral]

Automated testing combined with truly adaptive dosing is something technology should be able to unlock.

Really interested to see if the Hydros ecosystem (b/c of Maven) can achieve this: measure and then balance and maintain optimal trace elements based on nitrate and phosphate levels.

It can for alk / Ca - and for other things it can dynamically dose if you give it the input.

 

[jackson6745]

I think the next innovation will be the monitoring and control of the tank biome.

 

[Uncle99]

I’m relatively new to this hobby and I know there are quite a few folks here who have been in the game a very long time. Curious to hear opinions and discuss what you feel the next wave of innovation will be in the hobby?

Just from perusing this board you get a feeling for how much technology has entered the hobby over the past 10 years.

Automated glass cleaner or AGC!
Roams the glass at night leaving pristine glass at daybreak.
I would buy this.

 

[argiBK]

It can for alk / Ca - and for other things it can dynamically dose if you give it the input.

I feel like I’ve been away from actively monitoring what companies have been doing for the past year; my reef was largely stable. Seems like Hydros has made a good deal of progress implementing dynamic dosing.

Have been using a combination of ReefFactory and Hydros to monitor and control my tank, but, might be trading in my RF products to go with Hydros if the Maven delivers on its promises.