Next reefing innovation?

[Fat4242]

That said, I think doing anything to promote nitrification in most reef tanks is undesirable.

And what solutions can replace nitrification in an aquarium? Skimmer? How would the ammonia cycle expelled by the fish work?

 

[Fat4242]

I don’t believe that anyone knowledgeable suggests dilution of tank water with fresh to reduce the concentration of an elevated element, unless salinity itself is high.

I didn't say that because someone suggested this solution. I said it to show that an ICP test would be useless if it showed a high element in the result, since many cannot be removed without affecting others together.

 

[CHSUB]

AI robot that buys tank, sets it up, and does all maintenance; I come home from Pickleball, enjoy tank and feed fish while robot makes lunch.

 

[Fat4242]

With this robot, will you still want to feed the fish? :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

And what do you think led to this observation?

A biologist friend of mine, who did an internship with Jaubert at the Monaco Aquarium, once tried to explain to me, when I explained why a DSB and live rocks would not denitrify the nitrate coming from the bioballs. He said that bioballs obviously did not denitrify and that the nitrate coming from them was not converted by the DSB or live rocks, because the bioballs had used up all the carbohydrate. In the live rocks, however, it was done, because all the bacteria would have simultaneous access to the necessary carbohydrate, both aerobic and anaerobic.

In fact, when I asked if the Jaubert system really worked to replace calcium, he told me that the main 5,000-liter aquarium with 5% exchanges with the sea and just a few bungalows did not need calcium. In other words, the fact that the 5% exchanges with the sea already invalidates anything.

This is my rationale for the effect that many reefers saw in the old days when everyone had bioballs, and when folks removed them, even ones they cleaned regularly, they often saw a decline in nitrate.

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

Filters Designed To Facilitate The Nitrogen Cycle.

Filters such as trickle filters using traditional bioballs do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. Consequently, slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced. When nitrate is produced on the surface of impermeable media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

In a reef aquarium with adequate live rock, there is little use for a trickle filter, so in general they can be safely removed.

 

[CHSUB]

With this robot, will you still want to feed the fish? :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Still want some connection with tank and robot will be busy making lunch. Don’t expect I will be able to afford 2 robots.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

And what solutions can replace nitrification in an aquarium? Skimmer? How would the ammonia cycle expelled by the fish work?

My point is that rock and sand has plenty of capability of reducing ammonia to nontoxic levels, and that adding nitrifying bacteria frequently, or adding additional media that helps nitrifiers simply steals ammonia from corals and leaves them often having to get N from nitrate. That takes extra energy for the corals, and seems to be undesirable.

Reefers should not have it as a goal to drive ammonia as low as possible. The reverse may be true, keeping it higher than it might otherwise be by dosing ammonia may be desirable, especially in low N systems.

 

[dakoop]

Mindstream

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I didn't say that because someone suggested this solution. I said it to show that an ICP test would be useless if it showed a high element in the result, since many cannot be removed without affecting others together.

Well, obviously that depends on the element. There are many actions one can take besides a water change, although that may be a fine one.

 

[Red_Beard]

Tankless tanks, just like the water heater revolution.

 

[Gumbies R Us]

AI robot that buys tank, sets it up, and does all maintenance; I come home from Pickleball, enjoy tank and feed fish while robot makes lunch.

That’s what the new Tesla robot is for

 

[Fat4242]

FWIW, I don’t consider it a myth and have plausible reasons that explain why folks saw a nitrate drop when removing bioballs.

That said, I think doing anything to promote nitrification in most reef tanks is undesirable.

One question: In these cases where the bioballs were removed, was the fish load maintained?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

One question: In these cases where the bioballs were removed, was the fish load maintained?

I believe that in many cases, all that was done was remove the bio balls. Not sure who here remembers him, but one old time reefer who said that was his experience was Larry Jackson.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I believe that in many cases, all that was done was remove the bio balls. Not sure who here remembers him, but one old time reefer who said that was his experience was Larry Jackson.

Adding to Randy's comment here, as he likely recalls much of this as well...

In the early 90s, bioballs and wet/dry trickle filters were the gold standard for filtration. However, reef keepers noticed that while these systems were extremely efficient at processing ammonia, they did little for nitrate reduction. The bioballs of that era had high surface area but were essentially non-porous and lacked the anaerobic zones needed for nitrate processing.

As a result, hobbyists began removing bioballs from their wet/dry filters, replacing them with rock rubble or live rock. This eventually led to sump setups with live rock and trickle filters went away altogether.

So, to the original question—yes, many people saw a reduction in nitrates after removing bioballs, even when stocking levels remained the same or increased.

 

[Fat4242]

Um pensamento meu: Será que o aquário com bioballs tinha uma capacidade de processar, por exemplo, x nitrato, mas produzia 5x com as bioballs, então sobrava 4x. Sem as bioballs o sistema passou a produzir somente x de nitrato, mesmo valor que já estava processando antes. E, talvez, a amônia tenha ficado indetectável devido a outras formas que absorção antes que ela virasse nitrito?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Um pensamento meu: Será que o aquário com bioballs tinha uma capacidade de processar, por exemplo, x nitrato, mas produzia 5x com as bioballs, então sobrava 4x. Sem as bioballs o sistema passou a produzir somente x de nitrato, mesmo valor que já estava processando antes. E, talvez, a amônia tenha ficado indetectável devido a outras formas que absorção antes que ela virasse nitrito?

That is an alternative explanation to mine and may be all or part of the story. In any case, I do not recommend anyone use them for a reef tank, unless there is very Little rock or sand. Excessive nitrifiers are bad. Lol

 

[BeanAnimal]

A thought of mine: Could it be that the aquarium with bioballs had the capacity to process, for example, x nitrate, but produced 5x with the bioballs, so there was 4x left over. Without the bioballs, the system started to produce only x nitrate, the same amount it was already processing before. And, perhaps, the ammonia became undetectable due to other forms of absorption before it turned into nitrite?

I don't disagree with Randy's thoughts or yours and I don't recall ever reading a definitive study that would sort it out. I think either explanation is reasonable or a combination of both?