Nitrae/Phosphate Ratio - Super high Phosphate, and bottoming out Nitrate.

[Dburr1014]

Yes I get that, my po4 was around 0.6 before I used rowa to bring it down though.

The crux of my question is this: If I stop using rowa my phosphate will rocket back up, so how is just doing 2ml of the N part of ATI nutrition going to prevent that?

They say you don't need anything else to manage nutrients but according to their online calculator if po4 is above 0.6 and nitrate is lower than 1ppm all you need is the N part. What will stop my phosphates from just going really high again? as that is the trend in my tank.

I believe they are wrong.
0.6 is high. It's bound to the rock. It would have to be lower than that in the water column for a very long time to get out of the rock/sand.
How does this happen, gfo, carbon/bacteria uptake to feed coral, refuge/algae scrubber.

#2 would need tank packed with hungry coral and #3 you don't have.

Edit: there is lanthium chloride I didn't mention, but, that is a dangerous route to go down, IMO.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This calculator https://atiaquaristik.com/en/?page_id=2177 The nutritions tab.

I have been boosting with Nyos® NITRATE+. But the goal is to switch totally to ATI Nutritions. The reason I ask is ATI Nitrate does not boost measurable nitrate and ATI say that measurable nitrate is not a good indicator of how much usable nitrogen is actually available to the corals and that is where their Nutrition N comes in.

According to ATI you don't need a fudge or Phosphate absorbers just use their three components and dose according to that calculator. So if your nutrients are high the C part will help reduce it etc. But it doesn't seem to cover a situation where your phosphates are mega high and nitrates mega low.

That page pulls up multiple calculators, but I do not see one relating to CNP.

I agree that nitrate is not a perfect indicator of N availability, and nitrate may be among the least preferred forms of N. But having nitrate shows there is sufficient N available, while having none leaves the aquarist not knowing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes I get that, my po4 was around 0.6 before I used rowa to bring it down though.

The crux of my question is this: If I stop using rowa my phosphate will rocket back up, so how is just doing 2ml of the N part of ATI nutrition going to prevent that?

They say you don't need anything else to manage nutrients but according to their online calculator if po4 is above 0.6 and nitrate is lower than 1ppm all you need is the N part. What will stop my phosphates from just going really high again? as that is the trend in my tank.

The idea is that reducing a nitrogen limitation on photosynthetic organisms may make them grow faster, increasing P uptake. It may or may not prevent P from rising more.

 

[Dburr1014]

The idea is that reducing a nitrogen limitation on photosynthetic organisms may make them grow faster, increasing P uptake. It may or may not prevent P from rising more.

100% agree.
Another way to naturally raise N is to feed the fish. Try and pick a food that is low in P.
IMO

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

That page pulls up multiple calculators, but I do not see one relating to CNP.

There is a tab called Nutritions that is the CNP one, You should see the individual bottles at the bottom with their recommended doses

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

The idea is that reducing a nitrogen limitation on photosynthetic organisms may make them grow faster, increasing P uptake. It may or may not prevent P from rising more.

That's what I thought I just think my phosphates rise too fast or too much for that to work well in preventing it from rising more.

It's annoying that they don't really give much info on what to do in that situation. I mean if it recommended dosing the Phosphate part when I was still running rowa surely it would then be wasted etc

I may try just dosing the N and see what happens.

 

[SauceyReef]

The easiest explanation I have heard yet about N and P was by Lou Ekus at a seminar this past weekend.
He explains that N is easily taken up by coral but mostly as ammonia and ammonium. P, on the other hand, is not. But, bacteria can take up P readily but not much N. But the saving grace is that coral can take up bacteria. This is how they get the P.
So they are correct that N is really not a great indicator of nutrient health and high P needs more bacteria to take it up.
IMO, 0.7 po4 really needs help to take it up in some form. Either fuge, bacteria, gfo, ect.
Your last po4 post said yours was 0.18. That's high but I think is manageable.

You may be mixing two different people. I started the post. My phosphate was originally 1.2ppm! I’m running a fuge, Phosguard, and supplementing with calcium nitrate to slowly get that number down. Although .7ppm is very high, but it’s some good progress compared to 1.2ppm a few weeks ago!

awesome info though. Helping me learn a lot

 

[SauceyReef]

Do yall recommend ROWA > Phosguard?

@The Opinionated Reefer hey man this is a good post for you to be here. If you want please follow my regiment everyone helped me here figure out. Ive gotten my phosphate from 1.2ppm, to .7 ppm in a short amount of time. It is a mix of using a phosphate removing material, filtration, and dosing nitrate.

I think what we are possibly slightly confused about is how much Nitrate vs Phosphate each filter takes out. There is mechnical filtration, and natural filtration. I'm guessing each device is different! For example, a skimmer may work different than a HOB filter and remove different amts of each nutrient. Every media in a filter may work differently. Chaeto may remove different amounts than lets say other macro algaes, etc.. So just saying "dosing nitrate" will fix high phosphates is not necessarily a good fix depending on what is removing the phosphate. As @Dburr1014 brought up, bacteria is also a factor. Great explanation as well!

For example, if I just started dosing Calcium Nitrate without using PHOSGUARD and heavy on the refugium lighting, both my phosphate AND nitrate would just start shooting up. JUst adding C.Nitrate is clearly not a full fix depending on tank size, nutrient export, etc ..

 

[The Opinionated Reefer]

I found that marco algae just sucked up the nitrates even more and had next to no effects on phosphate hence i don't have a fudge or algae reactor. I have had an algae scrubber and cheato reactor in the past.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I found that marco algae just sucked up the nitrates even more and had next to no effects on phosphate hence i don't have a fudge or algae reactor. I have had an algae scrubber and cheato reactor in the past.

It has to be taking up phosphate, but likely not enough to remove what is bound to rock and sand that gets released when you try to lower it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do yall recommend ROWA > Phosguard?

@The Opinionated Reefer hey man this is a good post for you to be here. If you want please follow my regiment everyone helped me here figure out. Ive gotten my phosphate from 1.2ppm, to .7 ppm in a short amount of time. It is a mix of using a phosphate removing material, filtration, and dosing nitrate.

I think what we are possibly slightly confused about is how much Nitrate vs Phosphate each filter takes out. There is mechnical filtration, and natural filtration. I'm guessing each device is different! For example, a skimmer may work different than a HOB filter and remove different amts of each nutrient. Every media in a filter may work differently. Chaeto may remove different amounts than lets say other macro algaes, etc.. So just saying "dosing nitrate" will fix high phosphates is not necessarily a good fix depending on what is removing the phosphate. As @Dburr1014 brought up, bacteria is also a factor. Great explanation as well!

For example, if I just started dosing Calcium Nitrate without using PHOSGUARD and heavy on the refugium lighting, both my phosphate AND nitrate would just start shooting up. JUst adding C.Nitrate is clearly not a full fix depending on tank size, nutrient export, etc ..

I prefer GFO to aluminum oxide (such as phosguard) due to aluminum concerns, but both work.

 

[SauceyReef]

I prefer GFO to aluminum oxide (such as phosguard) due to aluminum concerns, but both work.

ROWA is just a brand of GFO, right? I am thinking about switching over as I am sick of the aluminum concern (even though the bottle says no risk of aluminum going into tank)

I found that marco algae just sucked up the nitrates even more and had next to no effects on phosphate hence i don't have a fudge or algae reactor. I have had an algae scrubber and cheato reactor in the past.

What I think others were explaining here earlier - once the Nitrate is low enough, the macro algae's will just suck up any remainder Nitrate and not focus much on phosphate. With ample nitrate, they can start focusing on phosphate as well. But I am guessing that macros such as Chaeto are just better Nitrate removers than Phosphate removers in general.

 

[Dburr1014]

For example, if I just started dosing Calcium Nitrate without using PHOSGUARD and heavy on the refugium lighting, both my phosphate AND nitrate would just start shooting up. JUst adding C.Nitrate is clearly not a full fix depending on tank size, nutrient export, etc ..

Maybe not.
This is my system, mileage may very;

I my system I am always low on NO3. My PO4 on the other hand was always 0.1/0.12 , I mean always.
I started to dose calcium nitrate to try and 1) NO3 up and 2) get the PO4 down to that magic number 0.05 everyone talks about.
I do run a refuge, i do have some growth.

I have dialed in my calcium nitrate to dose everyday once an hour at 35ml per day. This got me to hold at about 5ppm.
My refuge has had a growth up-tick. My PO4 has gone down. At one point I was zero. Had to dose PO4 at that point.
So I can safely say, my system was NO3 limited. I can not be for sure if the refuge is completely responsible for bringing down PO4 or the coral/refuge both be responsible.

You need both to remove both. You can't be missing one to remove both. This I am pretty sure is fact. Percentages I don't know.

Edit; I should have said in removing natural ways you need both.
GFO and the like will only remove one or the other.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

ROWA is just a brand of GFO, right? I am thinking about switching over as I am sick of the aluminum concern (even though the bottle says no risk of aluminum going into tank)



What I think others were explaining here earlier - once the Nitrate is low enough, the macro algae's will just suck up any remainder Nitrate and not focus much on phosphate. With ample nitrate, they can start focusing on phosphate as well. But I am guessing that macros such as Chaeto are just better Nitrate removers than Phosphate removers in general.

Macroalgae, like all photosynthetic organisms, take up much more N than P because their biomolecules that they are made of contain much more N. Every amino acid in every protein contains at least one nitrogen atom, for example. Mane fewer molecules contain P in a living organism (at least those without bones).

Yes, Rowaphos is a brand of GFO.

 

[HWDylan]

I strongly advise against potassium nitrate unless you closely monitor potassium. Dosing 2 ppm nitrate per day boosts potassium by 39 ppm per month. In many tanks it is not depleted so will accumulate.

I thought KNO3 was the generally accepted way of dosing nitrate.

Ive been using this because it is economical.

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I have an ICP test coming since I do them fairly regularly so we will see how the potassium is doing.

What is a better form of Nitrate to dose to a larger tank? I see calcium nitrate and sodium nitrate talked about here in this thread. Is there a preference? Things like NeoNitro from brightwell are quite expensive for larger tanks.

 

[SauceyReef]

Maybe not.
This is my system, mileage may very;

I my system I am always low on NO3. My PO4 on the other hand was always 0.1/0.12 , I mean always.
I started to dose calcium nitrate to try and 1) NO3 up and 2) get the PO4 down to that magic number 0.05 everyone talks about.
I do run a refuge, i do have some growth.

I have dialed in my calcium nitrate to dose everyday once an hour at 35ml per day. This got me to hold at about 5ppm.
My refuge has had a growth up-tick. My PO4 has gone down. At one point I was zero. Had to dose PO4 at that point.
So I can safely say, my system was NO3 limited. I can not be for sure if the refuge is completely responsible for bringing down PO4 or the coral/refuge both be responsible.

You need both to remove both. You can't be missing one to remove both. This I am pretty sure is fact. Percentages I don't know.

Edit; I should have said in removing natural ways you need both.
GFO and the like will only remove one or the other.

I agree with all of this stated! I just think if your phosphate is high enough, dosing nitrate isn't going to be the fix to get it down dramatically, or much at all.

In my head accumulation of phosphate is clearly just much easier than nitrate. Especially seeing macro algaes and corals focus on Nitrate consumption. That being said, I think I should start relying less on my fuge and more on Phosguard, or maybe ROWA to export phosphate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought KNO3 was the generally accepted way of dosing nitrate.

Not by me.

Too much risk of rising potassium.

 

[jose hernandez]

ive tried lanthium chloride does work but lost fish in the process dosed half the recommended dosage at first then got impatient phosphates were super high so went with the full dose it worked but as i mentioned lost fish it was my fault but no longer using it good for a temporary fix but would not recommend it for long term

 

[SauceyReef]

ive tried lanthium chloride does work but lost fish in the process dosed half the recommended dosage at first then got impatient phosphates were super high so went with the full dose it worked but as i mentioned lost fish it was my fault but no longer using it good for a temporary fix but would not recommend it for long term

Could be it just shot down to fast. I could easily get my phosphates down to 0, but doing this in a manner to get the tank used to the PARAM changes is the real challenge.

 

[jose hernandez]

i stopped using it does work but 2 good for me lost 6 fish in total now im just changing out my filter floss every 2 days until i install my fleece roller and im gonna use esv transition elements plus as well to try and keep phoshates and nitrates in check