Nitrate dosing questions

North Borders · May 22, 2016

Hey guys! I'm relatively new to reefing. My tank is 8 months old. I started adding SPS about 4 months in and have struggled to keep them alive. They'd look really good for a couple of weeks but eventually brown out or STN and die. I did quite a bit of reading and determined that my issues were likely related to next to no nutrients in my system. I found the potassium nitrate dosing thread already and went ahead and dosed my tank up from zero nitrate to 5 in the space of a couple days. After this my last couple of SPS frags took a dump on me and I lost them all within the week. I went SPS free for a few weeks while I researched more and decreased my Alk from around 8.9 to 7.6. My nitrates have held steady this whole time at 5. I'm starting some new SPS frags and I'm wondering if my issue might actually be zero phosphate in the system? I've used a Hanna checker, Salifert kit and recently purchased Red Sea's algae control kit with the phosphate/nitrate tests. I've never registered over zero on the hanna checker or any other test for that matter. Could dosing the nitrates with no phosphate in the system have killed off my SPS during the nitrate dosing period? All my other corals have been doing great. I have a mixed reef of LPS, Zoas, Softies and a plate.

Tank params:
-21 gallon display, 8 gallon sump
-NanoBox Duo LED
-Calcium: 430, dKh: 7.6, Phos: Zero, Nitrate: 5, Magnesium: 1350 last I checked, Temp of 80
-I run a bag of chemipure blue elite in the sump along with a protein skimmer.
-For livestock all I have currently is a pair of cleaner shrimp, a green clown goby and a smaller clown fish.

I don't want to overdo phosphate obviously, but I think having zero in my system might be hurting me as well. What would be the best way to raise it? I'm already feeding my fish a couple times a day.

reefcleaners · May 23, 2016

It probably isn't the nitrate dosing but I wouldn't do that anymore. What is your magnesium levels?

North Borders · May 23, 2016

Well, that wasn't really the question. I'm more or less asking if the absence of phosphate in my system harming my SPS frags when I'm running a nitrate level of 5. My Mg is 1350

No SPS no Care · May 23, 2016

sorry for the noob question but why were you using chemipure?

North Borders · May 23, 2016

I read that it's good in a system where you have mushrooms and some softies to absorb the chemotoxins they release. I've got a bunch of ricordea. Usually not as big of a deal in a big system, but this being a nano, I figure it's good to get those out of the water. I realize this is probably sucking up some of the phosphate in the system as well.

Anirban · May 23, 2016

North Borders said:
Well, that wasn't really the question. I'm more or less asking if the absence of phosphate in my system harming my SPS frags when I'm running a nitrate level of 5. My Mg is 1350

Yes, total lack of phosphate can harm your system. But generally your system never totally lacks it. When you feed you generally always have some phosphate in the system remaining. You are testing your phosphate with Hanna but it has a range like +/- 0.4ppm. If you test your water with Hanna ULR you will find some phosphate. Now, interestingly browning out of SPS can be due to more nutrient or sometime lighting issue. So, in your earlier stage when you were seeing brown SPS its possibly because you have more nutrient in the water. Now you did not mention when second time after you increase your nitrate how your SPS died. So when you have low alkalinity you need to keep your nutrients down. But if you really want to know get a Hanna ULR phosphate meter and test your water and if you still read 0 which will be surprising then you can pull out Chemipure elite.

North Borders · May 23, 2016

Thanks for the replies! My nitrate had been running undetectable for several months after starting up the tank. I dosed the potassium nitrate once using the Spectracide stump method from the chemistry forum. I got the nitrates to 5 and haven't dosed since. They've stayed there since then as I've increased feeding a bit. That's a good idea on the ULR Phosphate reader, I'll order one right now.

I added a frag each of monitpora digitata, seriatopora and pocillopora a couple weeks ago and so far they haven't tanked on me :) I'm a little hesitant to add more expensive stuff however, given my previous difficulties keeping acros.

Anirban · May 23, 2016

Am I missing something here? Logically if you have 0 nitrate to start with with just feeding then once you dosed with nitrate it reaches 5ppm. But to keep it at 5ppm you need to redose it after a certain time unless you started feeding more which holds the nitrate steady as nitrate should be depleted after water change or through denitrification.

I will suggest try begin with birdnest only and see if you can keep it or not.

McMullen · May 23, 2016

I'm starting to sound like a broken record with replays, but stability is the key to success. Your tank is still very young.....an infant.....and with maturity you will have better success with SPS. Your previous post listed a wide range in Alk. My suggestion is get control of alk and calcium first. Your problem may be nitrate and Phos related but I suspect this is maturity. Also, I didn't read about fish. How many? There usually are simple solutions to reef issues without dosing thing like stump remover as you've discovered......i.e. Feeding.

Anirban · May 23, 2016

McMullen said:
I'm starting to sound like a broken record with replays, but stability is the key to success. Your tank is still very young.....an infant.....and with maturity you will have better success with SPS. Your previous post listed a wide range in Alk. My suggestion is get control of alk and calcium first. Your problem may be nitrate and Phos related but I suspect this is maturity. Also, I didn't read about fish. How many? There usually are simple solutions to reef issues without dosing thing like stump remover as you've discovered......i.e. Feeding.

So, I support the point that you need to stabilise your system before you introduce your SPS. The maturity in other words is stability. I always feel its better to feed your fish more and get biological waste which your system will use to feed your corals. When you are putting these chemicals you are actually trying to bypass all other steps. But in your case you dont have a lot of corals to eat up that much of nitrate you dose so just feeding a bit heavily will solve your issue much easily than dumping those chemicals. People use them when they can not make up there system nitrate requirement with just feeding. So, try to hold your parameters at a point for a month and then try to introduce your starting SPS. I will also like to take out your chemipure as you dont nee it or run it for 3-4 days and then shut it for 2 weeks.

North Borders · May 23, 2016

McMullen said:
I'm starting to sound like a broken record with replays, but stability is the key to success. Your tank is still very young.....an infant.....and with maturity you will have better success with SPS. Your previous post listed a wide range in Alk. My suggestion is get control of alk and calcium first. Your problem may be nitrate and Phos related but I suspect this is maturity. Also, I didn't read about fish. How many? There usually are simple solutions to reef issues without dosing thing like stump remover as you've discovered......i.e. Feeding.

My alk has been very stable. I lowered it slowly from 8.9 to the present 7.6 over the space of a month and a half and it has held very steady around 7.4 -7.7 since. (I test every other day and use Hanna and Red Sea kits for redundancy) My calcium has also been very stable as well. I test once every 3 or 4 days and I'm never outside of the range of 420-450. I have 2 smaller fish(clown goby and clown) and 2 cleaner shrimp in there currently. I have 2 more fish to add from quarantine in the next couple of weeks. (a firefish and blenny)

The stump remover is pretty safe. It's merely potassium nitrate. As long as you don't overdo it of course :)

Anirban said:
Am I missing something here? Logically if you have 0 nitrate to start with with just feeding then once you dosed with nitrate it reaches 5ppm. But to keep it at 5ppm you need to redose it after a certain time unless you started feeding more which holds the nitrate steady as nitrate should be depleted after water change or through denitrification.
I will suggest try begin with birdnest only and see if you can keep it or not.

It's been 2 months since I dosed the nitrate and I have held it at 5 via feeding more heavily (reef roids, LRS nano, Reef Chili). Until that point I was mostly just feeding my fish pellets once per day or twice if they were extra good ;) . I expected to get at least a reading on phosphate, but nothing yet. I ordered the ULR checker today to see where it's actually at as I'm likely hovering around the minimum resolution range of the LR Hanna checker. Props to the fella that mentioned that earlier in the thread.

Anirban · May 23, 2016

North Borders said:
My alk has been very stable. I lowered it slowly from 8.9 to the present 7.6 over the space of a month and a half and it has held very steady around 7.4 -7.7 since. (I test every other day and use Hanna and Red Sea kits for redundancy) My calcium has also been very stable as well. I test once every 3 or 4 days and I'm never outside of the range of 420-450. I have 2 smaller fish(clown goby and clown) and 2 cleaner shrimp in there currently. I have 2 more fish to add from quarantine in the next couple of weeks. (a firefish and blenny)

The stump remover is pretty safe. It's merely potassium nitrate. As long as you don't overdo it of course :)

It's been 2 months since I dosed the nitrate and I have held it at 5 via feeding more heavily (reef roids, LRS nano, Reef Chili). Until that point I was mostly just feeding my fish pellets once per day or twice if they were extra good ;) . I expected to get at least a reading on phosphate, but nothing yet. I ordered the ULR checker today to see where it's actually at as I'm likely hovering around the minimum resolution range of the LR Hanna checker. Props to the fella that mentioned that earlier in the thread.

I suggested you the ULR because that will give you a little more peace of mind.....;) I used pure KNO3 earlier but now I found a balance between my feeding and NO3 level so I dont dose anymore.I maintain a ULNS and follow aquaforest guide. Earlier I was using Zeovit which is another ULNS. I will still suggest to get a birdnest and try to keep it. This will help you to understand things in a cheap and better way.....

North Borders · May 23, 2016

Anirban said:
I suggested you the ULR because that will give you a little more peace of mind.....;) I used pure KNO3 earlier but now I found a balance between my feeding and NO3 level so I dont dose anymore.I maintain a ULNS and follow aquaforest guide. Earlier I was using Zeovit which is another ULNS. I will still suggest to get a birdnest and try to keep it. This will help you to understand things in a cheap and better way.....

I've had frags of seriatopora, Monti digi and pocillopora in for a month and have good polyp extension on all and they seem pretty happy. Think I'd be safe to try something harder like a bali slimer?

Anirban · May 23, 2016

North Borders said:
I've had frags of seriatopora, Monti digi and pocillopora in for a month and have good polyp extension on all and they seem pretty happy. Think I'd be safe to try something harder like a bali slimer?

Now tell me one thing.....if your seriatopora, Monti digi and pocillopora are happy according to you as they have good polyp extension over a month time so why you were thinking that you have some issues with the tank???? Just stop playing with the system it will take care of itself. Do continuous testing and a good husbandry you will be good to keep anything.

North Borders · May 23, 2016

Anirban said:
Now tell me one thing.....if your seriatopora, Monti digi and pocillopora are happy according to you as they have good polyp extension over a month time so why you were thinking that you have some issues with the tank???? Just stop playing with the system it will take care of itself. Do continuous testing and a good husbandry you will be good to keep anything.

Well, good question haha. I guess I'm trying to cover all bases (phosphate) before moving on to more expensive stuff again. I literally blew $500+ on SPS frags getting to this point, so am a little leery to grab something spendy again.

Anirban · May 23, 2016

Hmmm....when I started reefing I heard about an old saying that we don't keep corals bit we keep water. Now,I truly believe this...just wait for couple more month and then start putting sps.

North Borders · May 24, 2016

Anirban said:
Hmmm....when I started reefing I heard about an old saying that we don't keep corals bit we keep water. Now,I truly believe this...just wait for couple more month and then start putting sps.

I like that saying :)

North Borders · May 24, 2016

Thanks for all the help everyone! I'll report back soon.

North Borders · May 24, 2016

OK, so I received my ULR Phosphate checker today. I ran it twice and got zero both times. :( Per previous advice, I took out the bag of Chemipure. I'm going to watch and wait for a week I guess and see if my phos creeps up at all.