Nitrate factories

[charleslotz]

Hi Randy

Firstly im a fan ... Many of my husbandry tasks to day are following on from your contributions or articles , my favorite being silicone dosing. I'm surprised many don't use this , I feel its zeovit's biggest secret. I'm such a believer in sponges cleaning water, I have a dark tank dedicated to sponges. And boy do they grow, and diatoms are so effective in speeding nitrogen cycle. I get excited when my glass is brown as I know it's eating something....!

Anyway this brings me to my question ,... Here is my theory /question..
I have read a couple post on the observations of some of us referring to nitrate factories. If you could explain why this is a nitrate factory .... As apposed to live rock not being a nitrate factory . I understand that within the rock nitrate get consumed , in low oxygen environment. If I look at the denitrification cycle logically only as much ammonia will be processed into nitrite as is available in the aquarium , and then to nitrate. So logically one would assume it's a benifit to have a "nitrate factory" as by default you will have no ammonia or nitrite or far less, and or that ammonia and nitrite is being processed into nitrate much quicker and more effectively than live rock... And subsiquintly processed into nitrate and then one would remove by one of the methods. In the end is nitrate not = to the available ammonia available in the aquarium and is constant if you have a nitrate factory or not ...?Or have I missed something?

Why? I was intreaged by one of the posts referring to po4 reduction in direct relation to available nitrate, as I have strived to have zero nitrate this kinda spurred me to not reduce carbon dosing to increase nitrate but dose stump remover , to increase nitrates, over 3 months with my nitrate between 10-15ppm I have seen an decrease of po4 and is holding stable at 0.04 ppm Po4(took my gfo online).

Looking for something more natural, I took out an old 5foot trickle filer with bio balls, removed the bio balls added some k1, media ( air Pump on order) plumbed from a return to setup a moving bed filter as it seems this is the most effective self maintaining " nitrate factory". I see banshee make a bio reactor now so following similar , methodology. Goal is to produce nitrates to control po4, but I'm perplexed by the above question regarding nitrate factory.

Your insite is appreciated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks!

Here are my thoughts on the nitrate factory issue:

1. Detritus may accumulate on bioballs, allowing it break down. That is only an issue, however, if the detritus would otherise have been removed (skimmer, filter sock, etc.) rather than just settling somewhere else. If it just goes elsewhere and breaks down, it doesn't matter much where it does it.

2. This is a copy and paste from an article of mine...

Filters such as trickle filters using traditional bioballs do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. Consequently, slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced. When nitrate is produced on the surface of impermeable media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

In a reef aquarium with adequate live rock, there is little use for a trickle filter, so in general they can be safely removed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why? I was intreaged by one of the posts referring to po4 reduction in direct relation to available nitrate, as I have strived to have zero nitrate this kinda spurred me to not reduce carbon dosing to increase nitrate but dose stump remover , to increase nitrates, over 3 months with my nitrate between 10-15ppm I have seen an decrease of po4 and is holding stable at 0.04 ppm Po4(took my gfo online).

Nitrate being required for phosphate reduction will be valid if the export method requires both. Macroalgae growth and bacterial (organic carbon dosing) or other organism growth require both. Binders like GFO or aluminum oxide or lanthanum do not require any nitrate.

 

[charleslotz]

Excellent explanation and makes perfect sense , so it's more about were the denitrifying bacteria live as you want to encourage the bacteria to process ammonia , nitrite and nitrate in the live rock as apposed to ammonia and nitrite on media and nitrate in the water column. Do you have an educated opinion on the marine pure blocks , I have six of them....

 

[blacktippr]

Excellent explanation and makes perfect sense , so it's more about were the denitrifying bacteria live as you want to encourage the bacteria to process ammonia , nitrite and nitrate in the live rock as apposed to ammonia and nitrite on media and nitrate in the water column. Do you have an educated opinion on the marine pure blocks , I have six of them....

What has been your experience with Marine Pure?, I was able to lower my nitrates and phosphate big time with 6 blocks of Marine pure. What's your total gallons and bio load?

 

[charleslotz]

+-1000 gallons ,... Very large bio load 41 fish,... One 10" emperor 3 x7inch fish... Etc... I like them allot but I have read somewhere think it was one of Randy's post about them containing an aluminum product That is not good.... I think,... cant remember hence I asked him his opinion.

I have seen nothing negative , they do crumple over time my oldest is + 3 years old. I have sold a couple over the years (2 new for one old )friend had as instant cycle started a 3oo gallon with two blocks in his sump seeded for a + 1year ,...zero cycle and full livestock and sps in 30 days 6 months later still going strong. Required some ammonia to keep bacteria alive until bioload was sufficient . I'm a big fan of the product...

Instant cycle for the impatient hobbyists. The sheer volume of bacteria they hold is staggering - think I read someware equivalent to 300lb of live rock. In my experience they work and work well... But take some time to be effective.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Excellent explanation and makes perfect sense , so it's more about were the denitrifying bacteria live as you want to encourage the bacteria to process ammonia , nitrite and nitrate in the live rock as apposed to ammonia and nitrite on media and nitrate in the water column. Do you have an educated opinion on the marine pure blocks , I have six of them....

They seems to do well for folks focusing on nitrate. My only possible concern is released aluminum, but I've not seen cases where it rose to the point where it seemed a problem.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What has been your experience with Marine Pure?, I was able to lower my nitrates and phosphate big time with 6 blocks of Marine pure. What's your total gallons and bio load?

Nitrate makes sense, but I'm not sure how I see they will do all that much for phosphate, and I've not seen many people claim that they do.

 

[nldemo]

2. This is a copy and paste from an article of mine...

Filters such as trickle filters using traditional bioballs do a fine job of processing ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but do nothing with the nitrate. It is often non-intuitive to many aquarists, but removing such a filter altogether may actually help reduce nitrate. Consequently, slowly removing them and allowing more of the nitrogen processing to take place on and in the live rock and sand can be beneficial.

It is not that any less nitrate is produced when such a filter is removed, it is a question of what happens to the nitrate after it is produced. When nitrate is produced on the surface of impermeable media such as bioballs, it mixes into the entire water column, and then has to find its way, by diffusion, to the places where it may be reduced (inside of live rock and sand, for instance).

If it is produced on the surface of live rock or sand, then the local concentration of nitrate is higher there than in the first case above, and it is more likely to diffuse into the rock and sand to be reduced to N2.

In a reef aquarium with adequate live rock, there is little use for a trickle filter, so in general they can be safely removed.

RHF,

Sorry for jumping on such an old post. Could you share a link to the article? I have a wet/dry sump which I currently have loaded with ceramics (rather than bioballs). I never liked the bioballs. I'd be willing to pull the ceramic balls out, but that would leave a little waterfall in my sump which would be quite noisy. Any ideas what I could do with that space? Bonus points if it helps my nitrate problems. I would looove to have a sump where the first chamber is feeding an automatic rollermat.. as that physical removal of waste just seems ideal... but I'd have to do some real stand surgery to get a new sump down in there.