Nitrite In 7 Year Old System

[Dan_P]

I took @Lasse advice and started to test my system for NO2 and what do you think I found? I measured 0.05-0.1 ppm NO3 (the level varies). I am using the Hanna Total Chlorine Checker to measure the color intensity and Red Sea.. It is really there.

Lasse what does it mean??? Snails, sea star, fish and mushrooms don’t notice

 

[Nano sapiens]

I took @Lasse advice and started to test my system for NO2 and what do you think I found? I measured 0.05-0.1 ppm NO3 (the level varies). I am using the Hanna Total Chlorine Checker to measure the color intensity and Red Sea.. It is really there.

Lasse what does it mean??? Snails, sea star, fish and mushrooms don’t notice

Did you mean "measured 0.05-0.1 ppm NO2 (the level varies)."?

Agree with Randy that it is quite likely that a similar small level of nitrite is present in many mature reef aquariums. It's just not something that most people test for once the initial cycling is complete.

The question I have is whether it indicates a deficiency in the system's ability to convert nitrite to nitrate efficiently, or just a normal occurrence with a rational explanation?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If real, it means:

1. Creatures are not bothered by nitrite (expected)

2. If typical of other tanks, it means that folks may not have nearly as much nitrate as they think.

Wild speculation... maybe that is why tanks "need" so much nitrate these days to keep corals from starving. They actually don't have anywhere near as much as folks measure.

 

[Lasse]

I use the Hanna ULR Marine nitrite checker and my nitrite levels vary between 0.01 and 0,03. I have started to use the Hanna low nitrate checker too. However - that checker is a mystery - it looks like it give right measurements when you do not dilute the sample - but very odd values when you do. However - I have not cracked that nut yet and Hanna will not give the correction factor according to nitrite interference. I will order a nitrite standard and solve that problem by myself. But in my last analyse - the Hanna nitrate show 2,95 mg/L NO3 and my nitrite was 10 µg/L NO2-N witch will be 0.0329 mg/L NO2. Now - if the factor is 50 - my real NO3 level will be 2.95 - 1.645 = 1-3 mg/L. If the factor is 100 - my real NO3 concentration is 0. I have ask fo the factor in their part of the forum - no answer.

Snails, sea star, fish and mushrooms don’t notice

If this was freshwater - they should not survive - that's the reason why good biological filter is a must in freshwater. In saltwater - NO2 is not toxic for organisms because chloride ions block the uptake. I very good trick in saltwater is a table spoon of table salt/ 100 L water and nitrite toxicity decline. But because nitrite not is acute toxic in saltwater good biological nitrification filter have been a big no - no because they create NO3 they say - nitrate factories. I have always run my aquarium with nitrification filters and many of common problems have been absent.

I read something from @AquaBiomics that state that they have seen that stable, good working aquariums often have an overrepresentation of nitrification bacteria strains in the water column.

It is also this way that there is a myth that living rocks is very good as nitrification substrate and for denitrification. There is many reports that says that I put in ammonia - two day after was the ammonia gone but the nitrate was near the roof. Its a proof that nitrification has cycled and after 2 - 3 weeks much of the nitrate was gone - proof that denitrification have started. What´s really happens is that the first stage - NH3/NH4 -> NO2 has start to accumulate but because that no one (before among others I start to yell about it) measured nitrite - the accumulated nitrite was seen as nitrate (The tests we use give false readings of nitrate if nitrite is present). When the second stage start to work after a few weeks - the nitrate seems to go down and seen a prove of denitrification but in the real world it was the the interference of nitrite that was smaller and smaller when the step NO2 -> NO3 start to work.

Lasse what does it mean???

The nitrification cycle take place all over and in all tanks and is driven by ammonia from fish and other animals when they feed and from the heterotopic bacterial mineralisation of organic matter. If you do not have special parts that are designed for fast nitrification - you will always have nitrite in your system.

For the moment I am try to get information from my system according nitrification rates, microbial communities and other things.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

If real, it means:

1. Creatures are not bothered by nitrite (expected)

2. If typical of other tanks, it means that folks may not have nearly as much nitrate as they think.

Wild speculation... maybe that is why tanks "need" so much nitrate these days to keep corals from starving. They actually don't have anywhere near as much as folks measure.

Agree to 100 %

Sincerely Lasse

 

[taricha]

Interestingly, the only significant no2 i've ever measured in my system was in the sandbed, when I buried a pellet of NaNO3. The next day the nitrite (hanna ULR nitrite checker) was 10x higher around the pellet than other places in the sandbed.
(But that was nitrite that came from the other direction, reduced from no3 in low O2 environment. So totally different ballgame. Shouldn't happen in the water.)

 

[Nano sapiens]

If Salifert claims are true, here is a way to get the nitrite reading without using a nitrite specific test kit.

I typically measure nitrate with a Red Sea kit. Per the vast majority of kits on the market, this one will have interference from any existing nitrite and it converts all nitrate to nitrite, then gives a conversion based on the total nitrite to get back to a nitrate value. Recently, I measured 4 ppm NO3 (twice to be sure).

I also recently purchased a Salifert Nitrate kit which the manufacturer claims gives only the true NO3 reading. Within the same 1/2 hour as the Red Sea test, I measured 3 ppm NO3 with Salifert.

So, 4-3=1 ppm nitrite. Rough estimate at best, but a probable indication that nitrite was present in my 12+ year old system.

EDIT: The info. above is NOT accurate. Salifert adjusts for 'Amine Interference', not 'Nitrite Interference'

 

[Nano sapiens]

The nitrification cycle take place all over and in all tanks and is driven by ammonia from fish and other animals when they feed and from the heterotopic bacterial mineralisation of organic matter. If you do not have special parts that are designed for fast nitrification - you will always have nitrite in your system.

Considering the relatively slower nitrification cycle in today's typical reef system (compared to a wet/dry filtration system), that makes sense.

Way back in day when I used a large wet/dry filter in my reef aquarium, I was not able to get nitrite readings with a NO2 test kit after the full cycle was complete (I remember that I tested a few times within the first few years just to get some use out of the kit).

 

[Lasse]

I also recently purchased a Salifert Nitrate kit which the manufacturer claims gives only the true NO3 reading.

I´m not sure that these claims are the true story - can this be true @Hans-Werner ?

The only test I know of that can give you a real result are Tropic Marine and Fauna Marine Pro NO2/NO3 tests

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

This is the only informations I can get according interference on Saliferts nitrate test. It does not talk about nitrite interference (that give a higher reading) its talk about amine interference that give a lower reading - but the way they write can it be misunderstood to even be valid for nitrite - IMO

The nitrate concentration in a reef aquarium should be lower than 1 mg/L, although fish only aquariums would usually have a higher concentration. Just as with nitrite, many nitrate test kits are prone to amine interference which can make the levels of nitrate appear much lower than they actually are.
The Salifert test kit does not suffer from such interference and gives accurate and quick results with a total testing time of less than 3 minutes.

From here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Nano sapiens]

This is the only informations I can get according interference on Saliferts nitrate test. It does not talk about nitrite interference (that give a higher reading) its talk about amine interference that give a lower reading - but the way they write can it be misunderstood to even be valid for nitrite - IMO

From here

Sincerely Lasse

Hmm, yes, good catch. I see how this way of writing can lead the customer (like me) who tends to speed read to miss that 'amine interference' doesn't equate to 'nitrite interference'.

Interesting that based on their claimed ability to eliminate amine interference my Salifert NO3 reading should have theoretically been higher than Red Sea's NO3 reading, when it wasn't.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The salifert nitrate test does have a big nitrite interference. Habib Sekha told us so. He never gave the exact multiplier they use, but TM said it was a factor of 100 for their kit:

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Randy
"I wouldn't suspect nitrite is an issue, but it isn't necessarily an interferent with all nitrate kits. Only those that generate nitrite in the testing process, and I'm not sure which ones besides Salifert do that.

Habib
"
I think all suitable for seawater do that. However, the dgree of interference can vary per brand/method.

The Hach and perhaps the Lamotte use cadmium to reduce nitrate to nitrite and measure it as nitrite.
"

 

[Dan_P]

Did you mean "measured 0.05-0.1 ppm NO2 (the level varies)."?

Agree with Randy that it is quite likely that a similar small level of nitrite is present in many mature reef aquariums. It's just not something that most people test for once the initial cycling is complete.

The question I have is whether it indicates a deficiency in the system's ability to convert nitrite to nitrate efficiently, or just a normal occurrence with a rational explanation?

Yes, I measured NO2. I assumed there shouldn’t be nitrite in an established aquarium. That belief is so strong I am still trying to figure how the measurement can be wrong. There is even nitrite in freshly prepared Instant Ocean!

For the record, I am using the Red Sea Nitrite/Nitrate test and a zinc free modification of the Red Sea Nitrate Pro. The former I use the supplied color chart, the latter I use a calibrated Hanna Total Chlorine Checker to measure the color intensity. Both tell the same story.

 

[Dan_P]

If real, it means:

1. Creatures are not bothered by nitrite (expected)

2. If typical of other tanks, it means that folks may not have nearly as much nitrate as they think.

Wild speculation... maybe that is why tanks "need" so much nitrate these days to keep corals from starving. They actually don't have anywhere near as much as folks measure.

I am in the process of measuring the effect of nitrite on the Red Sea and Hanna nitrate tests. We can then put your “wild speculation“ in perspective, at least concerning these two test kits.

 

[Dan_P]

I use the Hanna ULR Marine nitrite checker and my nitrite levels vary between 0.01 and 0,03. I have started to use the Hanna low nitrate checker too. However - that checker is a mystery - it looks like it give right measurements when you do not dilute the sample - but very odd values when you do. However - I have not cracked that nut yet and Hanna will not give the correction factor according to nitrite interference. I will order a nitrite standard and solve that problem by myself. But in my last analyse - the Hanna nitrate show 2,95 mg/L NO3 and my nitrite was 10 µg/L NO2-N witch will be 0.0329 mg/L NO2. Now - if the factor is 50 - my real NO3 level will be 2.95 - 1.645 = 1-3 mg/L. If the factor is 100 - my real NO3 concentration is 0. I have ask fo the factor in their part of the forum - no answer.


If this was freshwater - they should not survive - that's the reason why good biological filter is a must in freshwater. In saltwater - NO2 is not toxic for organisms because chloride ions block the uptake. I very good trick in saltwater is a table spoon of table salt/ 100 L water and nitrite toxicity decline. But because nitrite not is acute toxic in saltwater good biological nitrification filter have been a big no - no because they create NO3 they say - nitrate factories. I have always run my aquarium with nitrification filters and many of common problems have been absent.

I read something from @AquaBiomics that state that they have seen that stable, good working aquariums often have an overrepresentation of nitrification bacteria strains in the water column.

It is also this way that there is a myth that living rocks is very good as nitrification substrate and for denitrification. There is many reports that says that I put in ammonia - two day after was the ammonia gone but the nitrate was near the roof. Its a proof that nitrification has cycled and after 2 - 3 weeks much of the nitrate was gone - proof that denitrification have started. What´s really happens is that the first stage - NH3/NH4 -> NO2 has start to accumulate but because that no one (before among others I start to yell about it) measured nitrite - the accumulated nitrite was seen as nitrate (The tests we use give false readings of nitrate if nitrite is present). When the second stage start to work after a few weeks - the nitrate seems to go down and seen a prove of denitrification but in the real world it was the the interference of nitrite that was smaller and smaller when the step NO2 -> NO3 start to work.


The nitrification cycle take place all over and in all tanks and is driven by ammonia from fish and other animals when they feed and from the heterotopic bacterial mineralisation of organic matter. If you do not have special parts that are designed for fast nitrification - you will always have nitrite in your system.

For the moment I am try to get information from my system according nitrification rates, microbial communities and other things.

Sincerely Lasse

Just a side note. I used Bio Spira to establish nitrification in a 2 L “aquarium”. Ammonia oxidation to nitrite starts to occur almost immediately with this product. Nitrite oxidation did not happen for at least a month, i.e., nitrite concentration started to decline after 4 weeks. I am not sure there was any nitrite oxidizing bacteria in Bio Spira.

I also recently rediscovered that aquarium alone does not oxidize ammonia. I believe everyone but me knew that ammonia and nitrite oxidation occurs on surfaces

 

[Dan_P]

If Salifert claims are true, here is a way to get the nitrite reading without using a nitrite specific test kit.

I typically measure nitrate with a Red Sea kit. Per the vast majority of kits on the market, this one will have interference from any existing nitrite and it converts all nitrate to nitrite, then gives a conversion based on the total nitrite to get back to a nitrate value. Recently, I measured 4 ppm NO3 (twice to be sure).

I also recently purchased a Salifert Nitrate kit which the manufacturer claims gives only the true NO3 reading. Within the same 1/2 hour as the Red Sea test, I measured 3 ppm NO3 with Salifert.

So, 4-3=1 ppm nitrite. Rough estimate at best, but a probable indication that nitrite was present in my 12+ year old system.

EDIT: The info. above is NOT accurate. Salifert adjusts for 'Amine Interference', not 'Nitrite Interference'

I was about to type something but then saw your edit.

I am in the process of sorting out the nitrite interference in two kits. In the process, I confirmed that you can use the Red Sea Nitrate Pro and the Hanna Nitrate kits to measure nitrite as well as nitrate. You will need a standard curve to make sense of the color intensities, but it is nice to know you can at least detect the presence of nitrite with a nitrate kit, at least the zinc reduction versions.

 

[Dan_P]

The salifert nitrate test does have a big nitrite interference. Habib Sekha told us so. He never gave the exact multiplier they use, but TM said it was a factor of 100 for their kit:

Reef Central Online Community - View Single Post - Hach and LaMotte Nitrate Kits

Reef Central is dedicated to the marine reef aquarium hobby. Learn about reef aquarium setup and maintenance, and view coral and marine fish photos. Visit our online community and discuss and chat with hobbyists of all levels from beginner to advanced.

www.reefcentral.com

Randy
"I wouldn't suspect nitrite is an issue, but it isn't necessarily an interferent with all nitrate kits. Only those that generate nitrite in the testing process, and I'm not sure which ones besides Salifert do that.

Habib
"
I think all suitable for seawater do that. However, the dgree of interference can vary per brand/method.

The Hach and perhaps the Lamotte use cadmium to reduce nitrate to nitrite and measure it as nitrite.
"

I am pretty sure all nitrate detection methods in the hobby reduce nitrate to nitrite and then use the Griess reaction to make the pink color.

I learned recently that zinc metal destroys nitrite and confirmed it in the lab. I wonder whether the amount of nitrite destroyed is constant across kits and whether the Hanna chemistry which uses different zinc reduction conditions affects nitrite differently. More lab lab work might sort this all out.

 

[Lasse]

I am not sure there was any nitrite oxidizing bacteria in Bio Spira

Nitro spira should contain NOB (Nitrite Oxidation Bacteria) - your process have just halt. There is another thing I have noticed when the process halt. Sometimes - if you do a clean start - there is not enough of phosphate fore the NOB - they need some and they are truly autophs. I have restarted haltes system with a small amount of phosphate.

Oceamo - a lab in Austria have measured NO2 and NO3 in aquariums for a long time using scientific equipments - they confirm that many aquariums contain NO2 concentrations between 0 and 0.1 - mostly around 0.02 - 0.05)

Read this and look at the Video. Many can see which test is in use and its clearly that is conversion factor is 50 Scroll down for English

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Cnidoblast]

Regarding the pink tests - it seems like there are two different dye precursors that can be used and they likely vary between the brands and perhaps could vary in accuracy

The dye used can be either 4-Acetylaniline or N-(1-Naphthyl)ethylenediamine


I think it would be wise to compare test kits that use one over the other but this would likely require access to a university chemistry lab with a LCMS machine to figure out what kit uses what

 

[Dan_P]

Nitro spira should contain NOB (Nitrite Oxidation Bacteria) - your process have just halt. There is another thing I have noticed when the process halt. Sometimes - if you do a clean start - there is not enough of phosphate fore the NOB - they need some and they are truly autophs. I have restarted haltes system with a small amount of phosphate.

Oceamo - a lab in Austria have measured NO2 and NO3 in aquariums for a long time using scientific equipments - they confirm that many aquariums contain NO2 concentrations between 0 and 0.1 - mostly around 0.02 - 0.05)

Read this and look at the Video. Many can see which test is in use and its clearly that is conversion factor is 50 Scroll down for English

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks!

I knew from reading your posts about PO4 starvation stopping nitrite oxidizing bacteria. I started my little aquarium with PO4 present and nitrite oxidation still required over a month to begin. This is why I wondered whether there was a problem with BioSpira.