No Cycle?

[Flame2hawk]

Is it possible? Never thought so but here’s what’s happening….

On 3/3 I added turbo fast start to my new XL525 reefer which has sand and about 100 lb of dead rock along with 2 bio filter media blocks (one seeded with bacteria). I followed the directions to a T so added two clown fish and a pair of blue throat trig’s 5 minutes after adding the turbo and proceeded to feed pellets and flake every day. Have not tested but do have ammonia alert hanging on the glass which has registered no ammonia. Just tested this morning after 5 days…no ammonia,No nitrites and fish are happy as can be!. Is this Turbo stuff that good that it took the entire cycle process to nothing? Whatever the answer, there are only 2 more fish going into the tank and I’ll wait on them for a week or 2 or more…..Thoughts welcomed as this is rather surprising…at least to me. Thx



@Jay Hemdal
@Fish & Coral

 

[EricR]

Seems unlikely to me that quickly but I'm no expert.

Have you tested for nitrates?
Inevitably, someone will ask which test kit(s) you're using so might as well post that.

I never used bottled bacteria but I know many swear by it.

 

[brandon429]

The fritz is doing what it’s designed to do, since the bottle was live its a skip cycle.

 

[mike550]

@Flame2hawk your experience is very similar to mine. Never had an ammonia spike or saw nitrites. That was about three years ago. Only advice I can pass on is not to run your skimmer until you start to see nitrates and phosphates.

 

[brandon429]

What you are doing is called a fish in cycle

it’s harmless

you can see it’s harmless your fish are fine, three years ago Mikes fish were fine, everyone’s fish are always fine but I want to post this so you can watch forum umpires squirm over the matter until they got my thread shut down

Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

Even if it is safe for fish... is it the best way to start the tank? I always took the slow approach... I do use cycle bacteria these days but I still give it time and let the tank mature and start growing micro algae then add the cuc... then later I add corals or fish... sometimes corals...

www.reef2reef.com

look at how angry the masses were, for something so simple back then

nowadays nobody will pounce, we softened them up to the process but some decent pattern discussing threads had to be stopped to quell their madness

flame, what you did was our exact study above. A few years later, acceptance creeped in to the masses. I bet if jda sees your skip cycle he will still freak out though. There must be fifty thousand fish-in cycles logged since then, and I can’t find a single one where fish were harmed or showed harm symptoms. What I can find is a lot of anger over the matter, from days past.

I like how a thread title can be so angering it causes madness, yet the actual procedure discussed remained and became a staple in the hobby. See mass hysteresis above lol

 

[Flame2hawk]

What you are doing is called a fish in cycle

it’s harmless

you can see it’s harmless your fish are fine, three years ago Mikes fish were fine, everyone’s fish are always fine but I want to post this so you can watch forum umpires squirm over the matter until they got my thread shut down

Open challenge for the hobby: prove that fish-in cycles harm fish.

Even if it is safe for fish... is it the best way to start the tank? I always took the slow approach... I do use cycle bacteria these days but I still give it time and let the tank mature and start growing micro algae then add the cuc... then later I add corals or fish... sometimes corals...

www.reef2reef.com

look at how angry the masses were, for something so simple back then

nowadays nobody will pounce, we softened them up to the process but some decent pattern discussing threads had to be stopped to quell their madness

flame, what you did was our exact study above. A few years later, acceptance creeped in to the masses. I bet if jda sees your skip cycle he will still freak out though. There must be fifty thousand fish-in cycles logged since then, and I can’t find a single one where fish were harmed or showed harm symptoms. What I can find is a lot of anger over the matter, from days past.

I like how a thread title can be so angering it causes madness, yet the actual procedure discussed remained and became a staple in the hobby. See mass hysteresis above lol

I would never knowingly do anything to harm the fish. Many continue to disagree on using fish alone, with no bacteria supplement, to cycle tank. I’m in that camp. With all supplements available today, little reason to use fish only to cycle. I was just very pleasantly surprised, how well the stuff worked. It smells awful but all that “awfulness” is great seeding bacteria. Highly recommend this product and process.

 

[Flame2hawk]

@Flame2hawk your experience is very similar to mine. Never had an ammonia spike or saw nitrites. That was about three years ago. Only advice I can pass on is not to run your skimmer until you start to see nitrates and phosphates.

No skimmer, carbon or UV in the early weeks of cycle.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Seems unlikely to me that quickly but I'm no expert.

Have you tested for nitrates?
Inevitably, someone will ask which test kit(s) you're using so might as well post that.

I never used bottled bacteria but I know many swear by it.

No nitrates but that part not surprising. I know people have own view on API tests but I have found them to be very reliable and accurate. I know because my friend has Hanna tests and when using both side by side we get the same results. I now swear by this fritz product!

 

[brandon429]

That thread was fish+bottle bac in every case. Agreed fish alone is mean. The posters there wouldn't accept that bottle bac protects fish.

The big uproar comes from the hobby changing away from waiting 30-60 days to add fish, after multiple doses of ammonia were resolved / a procedure from decades ago when no bottle bac was used but the practice became a set rule in the hobby and carried over regardless of advances in filter science

We now know that cycling isn't an issue, today's products are very concentrated and able, it's that disease vectors begin right at the moment of adding fish producing a challenge months down the line, unrelated to cycling

 

[ReefGeezer]

I'd think the cycle is complete enough to control ammonia or you would see some elevation. I do like the Fritz products for that. I started all of my holding systems back in the day with the original Fritz-Zyme. It worked then, and I'm sure it works better now. The nitrite/nitrate part of the cycle is much less troublesome but you might check the levels with better resolution kits like Salifert or something, just for information purposes.

 

[Flame2hawk]

That thread was fish+bottle bac in every case. Agreed fish alone is mean. The posters there wouldn't accept that bottle bac protects fish.

The big uproar comes from the hobby changing away from waiting 30-60 days to add fish, after multiple doses of ammonia were resolved / a procedure from decades ago when no bottle bac was used but the practice became a set rule in the hobby and carried over regardless of advances in filter science

We now know that cycling isn't an issue, today's products are very concentrated and able, it's that disease vectors begin right at the moment of adding fish producing a challenge months down the line, unrelated to cycling

The fish going into this tank have actually been medicated and quarentiend for months so hopefully avoid all the unpleasantries of sick fish. Just happy fish

 

[exnisstech]

I just cycled a tank using the same stuff but went about it a little differently. I did not add fish but dosed liquid ammonia to bring ammonia to 1.5 ppm using a salifert test kit. I dosed ammonia a few times to verify it is being removed. I did not test nitrites but nitrates tested over 75ppm via Hanna HR tester which maxes out at 75. So I probably over did it with the ammonia. I will say I had nitrates the very next day so adding fish at that time would most likely have been fine. I have also been adding microbactor 7 daily to help out with benificial bacteria. I was impressed as this was my first time ever cycling with bottled bacteria. I started the cycle 2/24 and added a few frags on 3/4 and two mollies yesterday 3/7 and everything is doing well. I did a couple of water changes but need to test this eve to see where nitrates are. I will add that the salifert kit was reading 0.5 ppm ammonia after the "cycle" and reads 0ppm when a mature tank is tested so it does appear to be accurate regardless of what some people say.

 

[Flame2hawk]

The question is always how fast to add fish? I currently have 15 inches of fish in my XL 525 which I estimate has about 125g of water volume. I’m going to add a personifier angel pair and that’s it. Male s currently 6-61/2 inches and female 5-51/2 inches. When do you think I can add them while simultaneously adding the fritz again? Keep in mind I have the 2 seeded large bio blocks and about 100 it’s of dead rock as well as 30th s of live sand. Thx

 

[Flame2hawk]

I just cycled a tank using the same stuff but went about it a little differently. I did not add fish but dosed liquid ammonia to bring ammonia to 1.5 ppm using a salifert test kit. I dosed ammonia a few times to verify it is being removed. I did not test nitrites but nitrates tested over 75ppm via Hanna HR tester which maxes out at 75. So I probably over did it with the ammonia. I will say I had nitrates the very next day so adding fish at that time would most likely have been fine. I have also been adding microbactor 7 daily to help out with benificial bacteria. I was impressed as this was my first time ever cycling with bottled bacteria. I started the cycle 2/24 and added a few frags on 3/4 and two mollies yesterday 3/7 and everything is doing well. I did a couple of water changes but need to test this eve to see where nitrates are. I will add that the salifert kit was reading 0.5 ppm ammonia after the "cycle" and reads 0ppm when a mature tank is tested so it does appear to be accurate regardless of what some people say.

I dont worry about nitrates, especially in a FOWLR.

 

[exnisstech]

I dont worry about nitrates, especially in a FOWLR.

I typically don't on a new tank. I use the presence of nitrates to tell me the cycle is complete. At least complete enough to add some livestock, slowly over time of course.

 

[brandon429]

You can't benefit by adding more bacteria, the attachment points are full. Add the fish you want, no more cycle tuning needed

More than one application of bacteria isn't beneficial, your surface area is the limiter not bacteria in suspension

You can cease worrying about the cycle or trying to test for it now as long as the tank has water in it.

 

[ReefGeezer]

The question is always how fast to add fish? I currently have 15 inches of fish in my XL 525 which I estimate has about 125g of water volume. I’m going to add a personifier angel pair and that’s it. Male s currently 6-61/2 inches and female 5-51/2 inches. When do you think I can add them while simultaneously adding the fritz again? Keep in mind I have the 2 seeded large bio blocks and about 100 it’s of dead rock as well as 30th s of live sand. Thx

I would not add the Fritz-Zyme again, but... The Angels are are some good sized, expensive, sensitive, and somewhat messy fish. I would want the system to be more mature. Maybe there should be some evidence of coralline or some microalgae algae growth. I would also want to know the true nitrite and nitrate levels so that I could be assured that the system was adequately handling nitrogen compounds. Some capacity to remove dissolved organics would be beneficial too. I'd probably also add them one at a time over a two to three week period.

 

[Flame2hawk]

I would not add the Fritz-Zyme again, but... The Angels are are some good sized, expensive, sensitive, and somewhat messy fish. I would want the system to be more mature. Maybe there should be some evidence of coralline or some microalgae algae growth. I would also want to know the true nitrite and nitrate levels so that I could be assured that the system was adequately handling nitrogen compounds. Some capacity to remove dissolved organics would be beneficial too. I'd probably also add them one at a time over a two to three week period.

Thx. A bit confused though. If there is enough bacteria so as to not have to add any additional, then by default it s/b fine….theoretically anyway.

 

[brandon429]

It’s not about ammonia you aren’t lacking control there

it’s about system maturity so the fish can have systemic supports that aid in disease preps and suppression as well. Once items are added from pet stores that don’t pass through fallow that all dry system is quick to harbor disease and they build up quick, having an aged system + exceptional feed quality (food from a seafood aisle in the grocery store, hand prepared, and live worms supplemented etc) are two of the ways Paul B doesn’t need strict disease controls / this system will be starting at square one with both of those crucial controls missing

 

[Flame2hawk]

I appreciate the clarification. Angels have been in QT for months and during that time have been fed high quality frozen food (ie PE Mysis, Seafood bought clams/shrimp, carnivore, brine etc) all mushed together with beta glucan, selcon and angelixir mixed in. The only thing I’m missing is live worms as the only ones that I could find was bloodworms and they just didn’t like them much.

As far as aged system, we could apply that to its ultimate and wait years. So the question is how much time to wait where it really makes a difference? Yes they are big eaters but I wouldn't consider them ultra sensitive. Expensive yes!

On the other front still no ammonia or nitrites. Thx folks really enjoying the conversation…..