No love for MH?

oreo54 · Feb 16, 2019

sure you do..............
https://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/27...umination-led-light-par-14k-250-watt-halide/#

Might as well throw in a tube and led..

This is two Orpheks units at 12" over a 48x24" area vs an 8x54w Sunpower..

Bpb · Feb 16, 2019

oreo5457 said:
sure you do..............
https://reefbuilders.com/2010/01/27...umination-led-light-par-14k-250-watt-halide/#

Might as well throw in a tube and led..

The orpheks look like great lights. Too expensive though.

naterealbig · Feb 16, 2019

basement reefer said:
I wanted a Radium because it was the color I wanted. I don't want a Hamilton. Hamilton is not in Canada. Sorry I don't like Hamilton.

The 20k Hamilton has the exact same spectral output as a Radium. Check out Oreos post on this, or I can send you the spectral plot of both bulbs that Hamilton sent to me. What about the Hamilton don't you like?

naterealbig · Feb 16, 2019

basement reefer said:
MH is horribly inefficient and bulbs are really hard to get. (Heat)

LED are kinda expensive for nice fixture with lots of features, but LED diodes are not inherently expensive in and of themselves. I mean even a nice ATI 100watt T5 fixture cost $750 plus bulbs here.

I switched from a 360 Kessil to 150 watt MH just to have that real world experience. It was OK, yes it was easy however it lacked the pop of LED and didn't make it past the first bulb change. I replaced it with some 5000K screw in LED lol until I settled on a Radion with diffuser.

MH light is very broadband shotgun approach to lighting which is why it works so well and why LED is much more efficient when the right configuration is chosen. All MH lights are more alike then different, LED fixtures can be quite different from one another.
LED allows us to extract certain spectrums of interest seen in MH, while rejecting others.

Only downfall to the Radion is I can't warm hot dogs on it like I did with the MH.

What is your measure of efficiency?.

By "pop" do you mean the bright blue color that brings out the fluorescent pigments, but drowns out all other color in your coral and fish?

RCS82 · Feb 16, 2019

naterealbig said:
What about the Hamilton don't you like?

I wouldn't expect much of a response here lol

naterealbig · Feb 16, 2019

RCS82 said:
I wouldn't expect much of a response here lol

[emoji23][emoji6]

basement reefer · Feb 17, 2019

Bpb said:
That’s good. We should all enjoy the product choices we have made. We are all glad you’re happy with your tank.

T5 was a bit of a consideration, however T5 was more money, used more power and a bigger fixture. Ideally T5 with a single small LED for a bit of shimmer would be nice, but it's just too much off a fixture for this size of tank. If I want to dim the T5, ATI fixture and bulbs would be a grand. Then you are back to selecting bulbs based off of internet research unless you can see them locally. It would be easier to get T5 bulbs then MH though.

I considered building a LED, however the cost and size of the fixture would creep up. When you look at the features in the XR15, it was a pretty good value, I mean I certainly couldn't build one for that price and the size.
While not T5, with a diffuser and lifted a little higher off the tank it's T5-ish, incidentally actually has more shimmer when lifted a bit. 2 fixtures spread out would help give that office building look of T5 lights however being a mixed reef at the moment I don't mind a bit of a circular spread to leave some dimmer areas at the sides of the tank.

Perry · Feb 17, 2019

I mentioned that I moved back to halide, and am seeing very good results! Current setup:
Kessil A360we 8am- 8pm 80% blue only peak
Hamilton halide setup, Radium 250 watt SE 12pm- 6pm
Old setup:
4xt5 Aquatic Life Hybid- 2x B+, 2x Act+ 12pm- 6pm
Kessil a360we 8am -8pm peak 80% blue 20% white

I have firstly noticed all corals enjoying the massive amount of light, unlike led high intensity, the corals expand, instead of close up. Running a mixed reef is challenging, one would tend to think led optimal for my setup, but quite the opposite. 18" over water line, my current setup for 24x24x21" high footprint. Old setup 12" off waterline. Growth on all corals taking off since change. LPS puffed up, all zone open, and SPS colorful and beginning to encrust. With the old setup it was hit and miss, some looked great, some would look drab, some would open, and some closed down. Very happy halide user here

basement reefer · Feb 17, 2019

Perry I'm glad that works for you and hate to be judgemental like these other guys but IMO it looks like you're burning over 300watt, closer to 350watt worth of lighting. I can't help but wonder what more LED could have done being lifted 6" higher, spread out 18" and add another couple hundred watts?

One thing MH users ignore is the reflector, the reflector has a lot to do with the spread, despite losing a bit of energy in the reflection.

To each their own and its just a hobby, but I see that as a failure, you shouldn't need to air-cool a 18" softie tank in February, no matter where you live in north America.

Perry · Feb 17, 2019

basement reefer said:
Perry I'm glad that works for you and hate to be judgemental like these other guys but IMO it looks like you're burning over 300watt, closer to 350watt worth of lighting. I can't help but wonder what more LED could have done being lifted 6" higher, spread out 18" and add another couple hundred watts?

One thing MH users ignore is the reflector, the reflector has a lot to do with the spread, despite losing a bit of energy in the reflection.

To each their own and its just a hobby, but I see that as a failure, you shouldn't need to air-cool a 18" softie tank in February, no matter where you live in north America.

You are seeing this tank as a softy tank, cool, I respect your opinion, but I do have around 10 sps corals, and will be adding more. I will add this, I have no issues with LED, I just have not used them with the same success as with halide, but more importantly t5. I am probably to blame, and likely you have made a good case

Here's the deal though, ALL corals have responded well since this change, mineral consumption has increased, shrooms expanded, zoas and palys all open, not hit or miss. Kind of hard to argue, and originally intended only 3 to 4 hours a day, but the response is great! If I did go only LED, I would go Radion, they seem to be solid stand alone LED's. Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated and happy reefing!
Cheers,
Perry

Perry · Feb 17, 2019

My old reef under t5

I thought I knew what I was doing in the hobby

I used fans on this one too

DSC reef · Feb 17, 2019

Perry said:
My old reef under t5 I thought I knew what I was doing in the hobby I used fans on this one too

I think your tanks look great @Perry

basement reefer · Feb 17, 2019

Perry said:
You are seeing this tank as a softy tank, cool, I respect your opinion, but I do have around 10 sps corals, and will be adding more. I will add this, I have no issues with LED, I just have not used them with the same success as with halide, but more importantly t5. I am probably to blame, and likely you have made a good case Here's the deal though, ALL corals have responded well since this change, mineral consumption has increased, shrooms expanded, zoas and palys all open, not hit or miss. Kind of hard to argue, and originally intended only 3 to 4 hours a day, but the response is great! If I did go only LED, I would go Radion, they seem to be solid stand alone LED's. Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated and happy reefing!
Cheers,
Perry

You too bud.

In an another hobby of mine, I use a 2' LED fixture in a 3' space. There are almost 400 diodes spread out, conversely opposite to a Kessil point-source light. This gives the spread and minimal shadowing of a T5 fixture with whatever wattage you care to throw at it, without needing reflectors. I run a diffuser on this that nets a 7% reduction in total light but dramatically improves the evenness, creating a smooth PAR response all the way to the edge. (lol I guess a diffuser is a reflector of sorts) This allows the light to be run a little closer. I'm using 166 watt Samsung with Phillips drivers. You would need around 280watt of HID to get this kind of light. It's so much nicer to not have to address heat and fuss over bulb changes. These are quality parts that should still have over 95% of their light output in 60,000 hours. (About 7 years of continuous running.)

I do see the frags in there now, perhaps I was a little abrupt for the sake of making a point, but you get it. I calculated it out to be about $10-$15 bucks a month to run your lights here which is less then I thought, there are worse ways to spend money.

Bpb · Feb 17, 2019

basement reefer said:
T5 was a bit of a consideration, however T5 was more money, used more power and a bigger fixture. Ideally T5 with a single small LED for a bit of shimmer would be nice, but it's just too much off a fixture for this size of tank. If I want to dim the T5, ATI fixture and bulbs would be a grand. Then you are back to selecting bulbs based off of internet research unless you can see them locally. It would be easier to get T5 bulbs then MH though.

I considered building a LED, however the cost and size of the fixture would creep up. When you look at the features in the XR15, it was a pretty good value, I mean I certainly couldn't build one for that price and the size.
While not T5, with a diffuser and lifted a little higher off the tank it's T5-ish, incidentally actually has more shimmer when lifted a bit. 2 fixtures spread out would help give that office building look of T5 lights however being a mixed reef at the moment I don't mind a bit of a circular spread to leave some dimmer areas at the sides of the tank.

After shopping the used market for many months I was easily able to find a used mint condition 8x54 watt ati sunpower with brand new bulbs locally for $400. I realize every case will vary regionally, but at that price it was too good not to make the switch. I was unhappy with cheaper LEDs at that point and wasn’t ready to pay $1500-2000 to achieve a comparable par, spread, and spectrum. Paying more for the same result just didn’t seem like it made sense

basement reefer · Feb 17, 2019

Bpb said:
After shopping the used market for many months I was easily able to find a used mint condition 8x54 watt ati sunpower with brand new bulbs locally for $400. I realize every case will vary regionally, but at that price it was too good not to make the switch. I was unhappy with cheaper LEDs at that point and wasn’t ready to pay $1500-2000 to achieve a comparable par, spread, and spectrum. Paying more for the same result just didn’t seem like it made sense

That is a good deal for that big of a light.

I agree, I couldn't afford to light a bigger tank properly with LED either, unless I DIY a fixture. It might make more cents for larger size tanks. If I wasn't so scared of black box LED I might be tempted to use them on a big tank behind some diffuser.

oreo54 · Feb 17, 2019

Perry said:
I mentioned that I moved back to halide, and am seeing very good results! Current setup:
Kessil A360we 8am- 8pm 80% blue only peak
Hamilton halide setup, Radium 250 watt SE 12pm- 6pm
Old setup:
4xt5 Aquatic Life Hybid- 2x B+, 2x Act+ 12pm- 6pm
Kessil a360we 8am -8pm peak 80% blue 20% white

Well you did increase wattage (roughly 50w or 17% increase) and went from a very blue to blue centric spectrum..
Says more about the t5's than anything else..
I assume you had the Kessils set at 100% intensity?

Your Led was barely 1/3 of the total lighting..

basement reefer · Feb 17, 2019

naterealbig said:
I've read every post in the thread, and have been contributing throughout its entirety. You would know this if you had done the same. My commentary has been fact based, and even as someone who understands a lot about lighting, have learned a lot along the way.

I have also read every one of your posts, and you have not provided any data - only opinions in a manner which have been perceived by myself and others as a contribution to the direction of our intelligent discussion, that many have tried to avoid.

What data are you looking for? The address to get 20K 150w DE radium bulbs?

Lets do this, I've got a PAR meter, what are you looking for?

naterealbig · Feb 17, 2019

basement reefer said:
If you can't be bothered to read the thread, I can't be bothered to repeat myself. We get it, you love halides, good for you, enjoy yourself.

I have proven proficiency with both halides and LEDs on my systems. The fact that you are asking me these silly questions, suggests you have not taken the time to read the many thoughtful, knowledgeable posts from halide and led users alike (or those that use both technologies - like myself).

I am not "proud" that I have halides, but they are my chosen tool to achieve the results I want now.

I'm not asking you to repeat yourself - I am asking you to explain your comments - which have had no real information to back them up. There have been a couple people who have offered real solutions to the self-imposed and false constraints you present. It's fine if you choose to ignore them, but just be honest with yourself and others about your intentions.

Perry · Feb 17, 2019

oreo5457 said:
Well you did increase wattage (roughly 50w or 17% increase) and went from a very blue to blue centric spectrum..
Says more about the t5's than anything else..
I assume you had the Kessils set at 100% intensity?

Your Led was barely 1/3 of the total lighting..

Kessils never saw more than 80% intensity, the color did change when running t5, up to 20% at peak. To me, this should have been perfect, but as stated, some were closed, some looked fine, and sps mainly just looked drab. The idea behind the Kessil is to simply offset the whiter appearance of the halide, which combined shows a beautiful appearance to the eye, not too white, but not all blued out. I think the t5's were really not providing the type of PAR I was hoping for, at least in conjunction with the Kessil. To do it all over again with led/t5, I would use ATI 4 bulb lamp, with 2 blue only Reefbrites. Since I had the halide on hand already, the choice to switch lighting was as simple as a bulb investment.

RCS82 · Feb 17, 2019

Perry, tank looks great, both old and new. Kessils have always been a favorite of mine for the shimmer and blending. I ran 2 360s in a Aquatic Life 4 bulb fixture, used 2 T5s and added an XHO Reefbrite on the front and really liked it.