NOAA Proposal info and clarification!!!

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
So I wanted to take some time and break a couple things down for everyone curious or freaking out about the new proposal.

If you didn't already know,

NOAA Fisheries division is proposing Endangered Species Act (ESA) listings for 66 coral species:

59 in the Pacific
7 would be listed as endangered
52 would be listed as threatened

7 in the Caribbean
5 would be listed as endangered
2 would be listed as threatened

In addition, they are proposing that 2 Caribbean species--elkhorn and staghorn corals--already listed under the ESA be reclassified from threatened to endangered.

Proposed Endangered

Atlantic/ Caribbean

Boulder star coral (Montastraea annularis)
Elkhorn coral (Acropora palmata) *
Mountainous star coral (Montastraea faveolata)
Pillar coral (Dendrogyra cylindrus)
Rough Cactus Coral (Mycetophyllia ferox)
Staghorn coral (Acropora cervicornis) *
Star coral (Montastraea franksi)
* proposed to be reclassified from threatened to endangered

Pacific

Acropora jacquelineae
Acropora lokani
Acropora rudis
Anacropora spinosa
Euphyllia paradivisa
Millepora foveolata
Pocillopora elegans - E Pacific
Proposed Threatened Species

Atlantic

Lamarck's Sheet Coral (Agaricia lamarcki)
Elliptical Star Coral (Dichocoenia stokesii)

Pacific

Acanthastrea brevis
Acanthastrea hemprichii
Acanthastrea ishigakiensis
Acanthastrea regularis
Acropora aculeus
Acropora acuminate
Acropora aspera
Acropora dendrum
Acropora donei
Acropora globiceps
Acropora horrida
Acropora listeria
Acropora microclados
Acropora palmerae
Acropora paniculata
Acropora pharaonis
Acropora polystoma
Acropora retusa
Acropora speciosa
Acropora striata
Acropora tenella
Acropora vaughani
Acropora verweyi
Alveopora allingi
Alveopora fenestrate
Alveopora verrilliana
Anacropora puertogalerae
Astreopora cucullata
Barabattoia laddi
Caulastrea echinulata
Euphyllia cristata
Euphyllia paraancora
Isopora crateriformis
Isopora cuneata
Millepora tuberosa
Montipora angulate
Montipora australiensis
Montipora calcarea
Montipora caliculata
Montipora dilatata/ flabellata/ turgescens
Montipora lobulata
Montipora patula/ verrilli
Pachyseris rugosa
Pavona diffluens
Pectinia alcicornis
Physogyra lichtensteini
Pocillopora danae
Pocillopora elegans - Indo-Pacific
Porites horizontalata
Porites napopora
Porites nigrescens
Seriatopora aculeate

That's the list, and by my count only 14 species on the list are common, 8 more are rare at best and the rest are even more rare or never even seen in the hobby. However, all on the list are important reef building species.

Just to take it one step further
I JUST called the NOAA and spoke with a rep to get clarification for myself, here's the gist......

You can own any on the list,

You can continue to own them,

You can transport them across state lines but not for commercial purposes,

You can give or receive any specimens on the list for free but no money or services/goods can be exchanged. (IE frag swaps and giving frags to friends),

Most on the list are being classified as "threatened" not "endangered" which means there will be even more "exclusions and circumstances" that allow for ownership and the likes,

Other rights and privledges are available if you own the specimen prior to the new classifications,

For more info on the ESA (endangered species act) or "Threatened" species classification and what it really means, go here......

(ESA) http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/laws/esa/
("Threatened" species)
http://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/listing.pdf

If you would like to call them yourself, contact info can be found here.....

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/about/contacts.html

Hope this clears some things up for everyone ;)
If you have any further questions, let me know. I kept that rep on the phone for close to 30 minutes ;)




Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 

dougers31

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
2,015
Reaction score
138
Location
Albert lea, MN
My question is... are there going to be undercover federal agents at our local frag swap? ;)
 
Last edited:
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
How it unfolds is beyond me, I'm just trying to get the correct info out there ;) lol
Time to grab a piece of that $10 Cristata up the street. Should I get purple or green/gold?


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 

steveb

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
239
Reaction score
86
Location
TX
I registered in opposition to this ban.

Agency: NOAA
Document ID: NOAA-NMFS-2010-0036-0469 Your Comment Tracking Number: 1jx-84lb-ak7h

CBBSteve said:
I object to this proposed rule to list 66 corals as endangered or threatened based on my involvement in the captive propagation of many of the corals on this list. Many of the corals listed are commonly propagated in the aquarium trade and hobby. This provides a large reservoir of genetic diversity and helps to guard against any possible future reduction in the species in the wild. Euphyllia paradivisa is a good example. Specimens of this coral are commonly traded among hobbiests and their availability in the market is widespread. It would not be unreasonable to assume there are many thousands of specimens of this coral existing in captive systems all over the world. By including Euphyllia paradivisa, as well as most of the other corals in the list, that trade will become either illegal or very burdensome and result in the eventual loss of these species in the hobby and trade. The net result of that action would be to insure the exact opposite of this rule's intention and help to bring these species closer to real endangered status.
Please do not enact this rule.
I thought this was well worded quote from a gent in my local reef club in houston. If you register and don't know what to say use something like this...

You can register here Regulations.gov
 

steveb

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
239
Reaction score
86
Location
TX
So I wanted to take some time and break a couple things down for everyone curious or freaking out about the new proposal.

If you didn't already know,

NOAA Fisheries division is proposing Endangered Species Act (ESA) listings for 66 coral species:

59 in the Pacific
7 would be listed as endangered
52 would be listed as threatened

7 in the Caribbean
5 would be listed as endangered
2 would be listed as threatened

In addition, they are proposing that 2 Caribbean species--elkhorn and staghorn corals--already listed under the ESA be reclassified from threatened to endangered.

Proposed Endangered

Atlantic/ Caribbean

Boulder star coral (Montastraea annularis)
Elkhorn coral (Acropora palmata) *
Mountainous star coral (Montastraea faveolata)
Pillar coral (Dendrogyra cylindrus)
Rough Cactus Coral (Mycetophyllia ferox)
Staghorn coral (Acropora cervicornis) *
Star coral (Montastraea franksi)
* proposed to be reclassified from threatened to endangered

Pacific

Acropora jacquelineae
Acropora lokani
Acropora rudis
Anacropora spinosa
Euphyllia paradivisa
Millepora foveolata
Pocillopora elegans - E Pacific
Proposed Threatened Species

Atlantic

Lamarck's Sheet Coral (Agaricia lamarcki)
Elliptical Star Coral (Dichocoenia stokesii)

Pacific

Acanthastrea brevis
Acanthastrea hemprichii
Acanthastrea ishigakiensis
Acanthastrea regularis
Acropora aculeus
Acropora acuminate
Acropora aspera
Acropora dendrum
Acropora donei
Acropora globiceps
Acropora horrida
Acropora listeria
Acropora microclados
Acropora palmerae
Acropora paniculata
Acropora pharaonis
Acropora polystoma
Acropora retusa
Acropora speciosa
Acropora striata
Acropora tenella
Acropora vaughani
Acropora verweyi
Alveopora allingi
Alveopora fenestrate
Alveopora verrilliana
Anacropora puertogalerae
Astreopora cucullata
Barabattoia laddi
Caulastrea echinulata
Euphyllia cristata
Euphyllia paraancora
Isopora crateriformis
Isopora cuneata
Millepora tuberosa
Montipora angulate
Montipora australiensis
Montipora calcarea
Montipora caliculata
Montipora dilatata/ flabellata/ turgescens
Montipora lobulata
Montipora patula/ verrilli
Pachyseris rugosa
Pavona diffluens
Pectinia alcicornis
Physogyra lichtensteini
Pocillopora danae
Pocillopora elegans - Indo-Pacific
Porites horizontalata
Porites napopora
Porites nigrescens
Seriatopora aculeate

That's the list, and by my count only 14 species on the list are common, 8 more are rare at best and the rest are even more rare or never even seen in the hobby. However, all on the list are important reef building species.

Just to take it one step further
I JUST called the NOAA and spoke with a rep to get clarification for myself, here's the gist......

You can own any on the list,

You can continue to own them,

You can transport them across state lines but not for commercial purposes,

You can give or receive any specimens on the list for free but no money or services/goods can be exchanged. (IE frag swaps and giving frags to friends),

Most on the list are being classified as "threatened" not "endangered" which means there will be even more "exclusions and circumstances" that allow for ownership and the likes,

Other rights and privledges are available if you own the specimen prior to the new classifications,

For more info on the ESA (endangered species act) or "Threatened" species classification and what it really means, go here......

(ESA) http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/laws/esa/
("Threatened" species)
http://www.fws.gov/endangered/esa-library/pdf/listing.pdf

If you would like to call them yourself, contact info can be found here.....

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/about/contacts.html

Hope this clears some things up for everyone ;)
If you have any further questions, let me know. I kept that rep on the phone for close to 30 minutes ;)




Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!

What happens when Joe enforcement agent in the field mis-identifies a species or worse what happens if they decide it is too difficult to manage at a species level and then decide to ban based on genera? That is one/two of my big concerns.
 
Last edited:

Smnparish

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
323
Reaction score
0
Location
United States
That's when we get all nerdy on them, rambling on about the small differences b/w species until they get bored and drop the whole thing.
 
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
What happens when Joe enforcement agent in the field mis-identifies a species or worse what happens if they decide it is too difficult to manage at a species level and then decide to ban based on genera? That is one/two of my big concerns.
Game and Fish/ Fish and Game will go thru identification courses much like they do when it comes to enforcing fish/hunting laws. They will be very knowledgable regarding the species on the list(s) and how to identify them.
My guess is one or two employees per office that will be designated to handle ID's and the likes. (I admit openly though that I can not see into the future ;) )


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 
Last edited:
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
I registered in opposition to this ban.

Agency: NOAA
Document ID: NOAA-NMFS-2010-0036-0469 Your Comment Tracking Number: 1jx-84lb-ak7h



I thought this was well worded quote from a gent in my local reef club in houston. If you register and don't know what to say use something like this...

You can register here Regulations.gov
My only concern with this post is the misinformation it contains. I would much rather have a post that references more than just one species, as it clearly states "many". But, love the effort ;)


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 

neuwave

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
309
Reaction score
53
Location
Tampa
Game and Fish/ Fish and Game will go thru identification courses much like they do when it comes to enforcing fish/hunting laws. They will be very knowledgable regarding the species on the list(s) and how to identify them.
My guess is one or two employees per office that will be designated to handle ID's and the likes. (I admit openly though that I can not see into the future ;) )


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
I hope so. But living here in Florida, the fish and wildlife do a good job of protecting areas and wildlife. But even the ones I used to know couldn't properly identify the difference between species and always lumped the, together as "polyps". They were nice guys, just not the best at identification.
 

steveb

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
239
Reaction score
86
Location
TX
My only concern with this post is the misinformation it contains. I would much rather have a post that references more than just one species, as it clearly states "many". But, love the effort ;)


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
I understand. I don't think I would lable it misinformartion but rather lack of information.. But he was trying to point out one species in particular that he has spent a lot of time growing. I liked it from the stand point of it was short made a specific point and indicated there are other species in the same situation. Also thought it would be better than "I hate this don't take my dern corals away" type of comment. That is kinda what I was trying to get across.
 
Last edited:

steveb

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
239
Reaction score
86
Location
TX
I hope so. But living here in Florida, the fish and wildlife do a good job of protecting areas and wildlife. But even the ones I used to know couldn't properly identify the difference between species and always lumped the, together as "polyps". They were nice guys, just not the best at identification.
My point exactly. If the scientific community has issues with ID other than by skeletal examination and they are IRC going through and reclassifying some where does that leave average joe enforcement agent?
 
Last edited:

Turbo's Aquatics

Super Duper Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
2,293
Reaction score
3,246
Location
West Des Moines, IA
THIS IS IMPORTANT. WE ALL NEED TO COMMENT ON THIS RIGHT NOW!!!

MASNA Blog - MASNA Response to ESA Listing for 82 Coral Species coming today

MASNA Blog - MASNA submits its response to the proposed ESA listings of multiple corals

http://www.masna.org/Portals/0/Blog/Files/7/75/response letter ESA listing v3.pdf

This bill/legislation or whatever it is basically would outlaw the keeping, selling, or trading of any stony coral.

You need to submit your comment on this form, ASAP - April 5th is the deadline

Regulations.gov

This thing would classify most stony corals (pretty much all, because what DNR guy is going to know what acropora is what, really?) as endangered species. This is all based on very poor studies, specifically chosen because they are poor so that their conclusions can be drawn.

POST COMMENTS IMMEDIATELY. THIS EFFORT IS NOT BASED ON SUFFICIENT DATA. THIS COULD POTENTIALLY DECIMATE THIS HOBBY. WE COULD PRETTY MUCH ALL BE DEEMED CRIMINALS FOR OWNING SPS CORALS

I submitted this:

This proposed action is not based on sufficient data. There is no real effective way for someone without a degree in marine biology and decades of experience to tell one coral species from another. this action could potentially shut down an entire industry, full of hobbyists with love for the ocean and reefs. This action could potentially criminalize hundreds of thousands of hobbyists.

I am a member of a statewide reef keeping hobbyist club. We all endeavor to propagate and maintain as many coral species as possible. It is entirely possible that, if some species becomes extinct in the wild due to climate change factors or for any other reason, the only surviving species would be captive held and propagated coral colonies. It is entirely possible that this action could prevent the preservation of literally thousands of coral species. Most dedicated reef hobbyists pride themselves on maintaining pristine water conditions to maximize coral growth, then when their tanks get overgrown, they share these with others. Why on earth would one want to decimate the very industry that may very well someday be the last bastion of safety for the living reefs of the world?

This proposed action is full of disregard for the facts, and should not even be considered.

I fully support the view of the Marine Aquarium Societies of North America (MASNA) with respect to their letter dated April 4, 2013 with regard to this matter.
 
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
THIS IS IMPORTANT. WE ALL NEED TO COMMENT ON THIS RIGHT NOW!!!

MASNA Blog - MASNA Response to ESA Listing for 82 Coral Species coming today

MASNA Blog - MASNA submits its response to the proposed ESA listings of multiple corals

http://www.masna.org/Portals/0/Blog/Files/7/75/response letter ESA listing v3.pdf

This bill/legislation or whatever it is basically would outlaw the keeping, selling, or trading of any stony coral.

You need to submit your comment on this form, ASAP - April 5th is the deadline

Regulations.gov

This thing would classify most stony corals (pretty much all, because what DNR guy is going to know what acropora is what, really?) as endangered species. This is all based on very poor studies, specifically chosen because they are poor so that their conclusions can be drawn.

POST COMMENTS IMMEDIATELY. THIS EFFORT IS NOT BASED ON SUFFICIENT DATA. THIS COULD POTENTIALLY DECIMATE THIS HOBBY. WE COULD PRETTY MUCH ALL BE DEEMED CRIMINALS FOR OWNING SPS CORALS

I submitted this:

This proposed action is not based on sufficient data. There is no real effective way for someone without a degree in marine biology and decades of experience to tell one coral species from another. this action could potentially shut down an entire industry, full of hobbyists with love for the ocean and reefs. This action could potentially criminalize hundreds of thousands of hobbyists.

I am a member of a statewide reef keeping hobbyist club. We all endeavor to propagate and maintain as many coral species as possible. It is entirely possible that, if some species becomes extinct in the wild due to climate change factors or for any other reason, the only surviving species would be captive held and propagated coral colonies. It is entirely possible that this action could prevent the preservation of literally thousands of coral species. Most dedicated reef hobbyists pride themselves on maintaining pristine water conditions to maximize coral growth, then when their tanks get overgrown, they share these with others. Why on earth would one want to decimate the very industry that may very well someday be the last bastion of safety for the living reefs of the world?

This proposed action is full of disregard for the facts, and should not even be considered.

I fully support the view of the Marine Aquarium Societies of North America (MASNA) with respect to their letter dated April 4, 2013 with regard to this matter.
While I appreciate your enthusiasm, please refrain from spreading misinformation. There are several bits in your post that I have issue with. Please educate yourself further to understand exactly what is being proposed. I don't mean this as a put down at all. I just think you may be confused or basing your post off incorrect information. Thanks


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
AGAIN TO CLARIFY, AND IF YOU DONT TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS, DONT COMMENT. THANKS.


***FACTS***

You can own any specimen on the list,

You can continue to own them, even after the classification,

You can transport them across state lines but not for commercial purposes, and not internationally,

You can give or receive any specimens on the list for free (IE frag swaps and giving frags to friends) but no money or services/goods can be exchanged,

Most on the list are being classified as "threatened" not "endangered" which means there will be even more "exclusions and circumstances" that ALLOW for ownership and the likes, INCLUDING CAPTIVE RAISED SPECIMENS,

Other rights and privledges are available if you own the specimen prior to the new classifications.

Again hopefully this clarifies some info for people that seem to be confused.

Whatever you decide to comment...... I only ask you do 20 minutes of reading before doing so.

Topics to search.......

ESA (endangered species act)
&
Threatened species clasification and definition

If you still have questions or want to get the info from the horses mouth, call them yourself (NOAA), contact info can be found here.....

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/about/contacts.html

Have a great night everyone ;)


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 

solar

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4
Location
Millersville,Tn
In other words, the proposed listing may very well prohibit and criminalize the transport and trade of all Acropora and Euphyllia species, (whether wild -collected, maricultured or captive-propagated, including those existing in hobbyists’ aquariums at the time the regulation goes into effect), included those traded at frag swaps or between individual hobbyists, but may also prohibit moving one of these corals from one tank to another, or even taking a colony out of an existing aquarium for treatment, ect., and replacing it in the same aquarium.

Read more: Reef Hobby needs YOU: call for comments regarding ESA coral listing

This says you can't even take it out the tank to treat it if it is dying
:sad:

Thats a great way to help repopulate reefs.......Or to stop others from wild collection. NOT!!
 
Last edited:
Get Fish & Corals directly for the suppliers
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
In other words, the proposed listing may very well prohibit and criminalize the transport and trade of all Acropora and Euphyllia species, (whether wild -collected, maricultured or captive-propagated, including those existing in hobbyists’ aquariums at the time the regulation goes into effect), included those traded at frag swaps or between individual hobbyists, but may also prohibit moving one of these corals from one tank to another, or even taking a colony out of an existing aquarium for treatment, ect., and replacing it in the same aquarium.

Read more: Reef Hobby needs YOU: call for comments regarding ESA coral listing
NO, everything you just posted is wrong.


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 

solar

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4
Location
Millersville,Tn
Sorry to say no it is not stop spreading false info........

I took it straight from the WEBSITE

http://reefbuilders.com/2013/04/03/reef-hobby-call-comments-esa-coral-listing/

Read for yourself......

Along with this
Again, the way the ESA is enforced, there is a significant possibility that the proposed listing would be enforced, in effect, as to all corals in the respective genera, including all corals in the Acropora, Montipora, Euphyllia, Caulastrea, Pocillopora, Porities, Pavona, Pectina, Pachyseris and Seriatopra genera.

Read more: Reef Hobby needs YOU: call for comments regarding ESA coral listing
 
Last edited:
OP
Dsdaley77

Dsdaley77

*REEF ADDICT*
View Badges
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
1,215
Reaction score
5
Location
Phoenix,AZ
I don't need to read something from a second party website, and I did read it, left a comment as well. The fact remains...... I CALLED THE NOAA! MYSELF, me. I verbally asked questions and received answers from a rep who works for the NOAA fisheries division. SO, again, quit speaking on a matter you have not personally researched and unless you have different FACTS, quit spreading misinformation. Thank you.


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
 

jt17

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 2, 2012
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
324
Location
Winter Haven, FL
My question is... are there going to be undercover federal agents at our local frag swap? ;)
Maybe not local, but I would bet there will be at least 1 at MACNA. Fish and wildlife sent undercover agents to Cycad 99 (an international convention on cycads) back in 1999 in Miami. That started a multi year under cover investigation and arrests were made. The cycad community is much smaller than the reefing community so agents could easily blend in. Here's a rather lengthy account of what happened. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/magazine/28CYCADS.html?pagewanted=print

Remember fish and wildlife have the ability to confiscate your entire collection as evidence should you be charged with purchasing illegal wildlife. Let the importers handle the permits and legalities and only buy from reputable sources.
 

solar

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 28, 2012
Messages
1,424
Reaction score
4
Location
Millersville,Tn
I don't need to read something from a second party website, and I did read it, left a comment as well. The fact remains...... I CALLED THE NOAA! MYSELF, me. I verbally asked questions and received answers from a rep who works for the NOAA fisheries division. SO, again, quit speaking on a matter you have not personally researched and unless you have different FACTS, quit spreading misinformation. Thank you.


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!
Ya cause im sure they don't know what they are talking about....:boom:
Kind of naive don't you think?
 
Get Fish & Corals directly for the suppliers

Will you watch revhtree on the LIVE #askBRStv show?

  • Yes I'll tune in live at 1:30pm est!

    Votes: 46 40.7%
  • No I'll have to catch the rerun!

    Votes: 61 54.0%
  • Neither, I choose to make revhtree sad...

    Votes: 6 5.3%

Online statistics

Members online
1,498
Guests online
3,314
Total visitors
4,812
Budman's Corals LLC
Underwatergardeners
Top