NOAA Proposal info and clarification!!!

Mark L.

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I agree with this statement 100% and with the MASNA Response (one of the first places I went upon learning of this proposal).

Again my point here isn't to say do it or don't, just to provide clear information so people are fully informed.
When I see people saying "omg we will never be able to own SPS", I find the need to pipe in.
They are wrong. People are overreacting and adding info to this issue that is irrelevant IMO.

This is all I'm trying to say and I base it off info on the websites previously referenced, past experiences and confirmed events from the past regarding similar topics, as well as verbal answers from an NOAA rep.

"You can own and care for any specimen on the list unless designated to the actual ESA list, not "threatened". ***This is confirmed by looking at current specimens on the list and what you can and can't do with those classified specimens.***

You can continue to own them, even after the classification. This includes moving your tank to a new home, even across state lines and rehoming.
***Again precedence confirms this to be a fact***

You can transport them across state lines but not for commercial purposes, and never internationally.
***Again precedence confirms this to be a fact***

You CAN give or receive any specimens on the list for free (IE frag swaps and giving frags to friends) but no money or services/goods can be exchanged (IE commercial transactions).
***Again precedence confirms this to be a fact***

Most on the list are being classified as "threatened" not "endangered" which means there will be even more "exclusions and circumstances" that ALLOW for ownership and the likes, INCLUDING CAPTIVE RAISED SPECIMENS, Commercial permits will most likely be available based on data pertaining to past permit availability.
***Again precedence confirms this to be a fact***

Other rights and privledges are available if you own the specimen prior to the new classifications (Grandfathered specimen).
***Again precedence confirms this to be a fact***"


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Can you please provide us with the exact links to the verbiage that states what you claim above? Simply posting the main page to the NOAA and telling us you spoke to someone on the phone isn't going to cut it. I'm sorry but unless you provide exact physical evidence of your "facts" I am not going to believe you. I personally know 3 game wardens that live in my subdivision. I'm on our Board of Directors for the subdivision and have to deal with them frequently. This whole situation will become a nightmare if they drive by my house and see that "blue glow" emitting from half my windows. It's a dead giveaway I have a reef aquarium and there's no way possible they will be able to identify my corals. They would rather confiscate and let the judge sort it out.

Seriously, sit back for a minute and think about what you are asking us to do. You want a website full of strangers to believe someone they have never met. I understand and appriciate your enthusiasim to help us out with this situation but you need to realize, what you have been told over the phone does NOT coincide with what is written in black and white. Do you honestly think an officer of the law is going to care when you tell him "but I spoke to a lady on the phone and she said...." He is going to laugh at you as he tears your aquarium apart.

And to be honest, for all I know, you may secretly want this passed and decided to chime in here hoping to calm everyone down. This is the internet anything is possible.

Bonjour!
 
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cdness

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I cannot see the image, but if you are quoting the commercial I am thinking of, this is great!

Fact is written down in black and white and traceable to the official that wrote it. Opinion and here-say is vocally talking or internet chatting about something. I too will believe what is in black and white. I am looking forward to the reassurances of Dsdaley77 if they can be reinforced by facts in writing.

However I am still opposing the regulation and would like to see some conservation which doesn't directly ban things.
 

Mark L.

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I cannot see the image, but if you are quoting the commercial I am thinking of, this is great!

Fact is written down in black and white and traceable to the official that wrote it. Opinion and here-say is vocally talking or internet chatting about something. I too will believe what is in black and white. I am looking forward to the reassurances of Dsdaley77 if they can be reinforced by facts in writing.

However I am still opposing the regulation and would like to see some conservation which doesn't directly ban things.
can you see it now? :)

That was my point exactly. My uncle is a police officer and he tells me it's no problem to go 9mph over the speed limit. No cop is that mean!!

Well I got a ticket for 5 over the other day. He didn't care what my uncle told me!!
 

dougers31

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I don't know why they don't just protect certain areas of the reef where these corals are present. I'm sure that's a whole new can of worms but to me(and my limited knowledge) it makes more sense.
 
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Dsdaley77

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I will start here since I have a break.

I will post a direct link to the page in the screen shot for those unable to open the pictures.

Please read the whole thing,
http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/stories/2012/11/docs/faqs_for_82_corals_1129_final.pdf
ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365187800.608232.jpg


And.......
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2012/20121130_coralspecies.html
ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365187895.621132.jpg


Clearly they are addressing some of our concerns and while yes, nothing is set in stone, the Rep with NOAA said that very rarely are there major restrictions placed on "threatened" species.


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Dsdaley77

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can you see it now? :)

That was my point exactly. My uncle is a police officer and he tells me it's no problem to go 9mph over the speed limit. No cop is that mean!!

Well I got a ticket for 5 over the other day. He didn't care what my uncle told me!!
That is completely different. The law is the law and you cant be given permission to break it. lol
The definition of "threatened" as it applies to the ESA is quite clear in that its not the same as endangered. Your not actually breaking a law by having a coral on the list. Now if you sell one on the list you're in trouble. But, that's not what I'm telling you to do. ;) Follow?


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Dsdaley77

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I don't know why they don't just protect certain areas of the reef where these corals are present. I'm sure that's a whole new can of worms but to me(and my limited knowledge) it makes more sense.
Based on the info I have read, it seems they are laying down a blanket policy to attract funding and research into what is actually going on and how to proceed. Nobody has stated that corals can't be downgraded in the future as more data becomes available.


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mpedersen

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See, the funny thing is what you cited fully DOES NOT SUPPORT anything you suggested from your NOAA phone call. Remember, this is a mixed bag of both endangered and threatened species...Frogspawn Euphyllia paradivisa being one of the ones that will be "endangered". Show of hands - how many have frogspawn in their tanks right now?

Read what you posted. There's no provision for the aquarium trade, for private ownership, for commerce etc.
 

rlpardue

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That is completely different. The law is the law and you cant be given permission to break it. lol
The definition of "threatened" as it applies to the ESA is quite clear in that its not the same as endangered. Your not actually breaking a law by having a coral on the list. Now if you sell one on the list you're in trouble. But, that's not what I'm telling you to do. ;) Follow?
There is no difference between passing a law which bans the sale of a coral and a law which prohibits the owning of a coral. I assure you that owning corals will be *a bit more difficult* if you can only get them for free. I'm not sure why you're trying to stand on this distinction.
 
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Dsdaley77

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Well it depends..... Is your issue that the coral cant be "sold" or that you can't "own" said coral. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS ;)


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rlpardue

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My issue is that if coral businesses cannot sell corals, then we will not own them (at least not even close to the extent that we do now, not even close). Don't speak to me of frag swaps; it is not a realistic long-term option. The price of black market corals will skyrocket. It will be difficult to attract new hobbyists to our local societies when you tell them they must meet in the back parking lot of a fish store at midnight to obtain hard corals. (Tongue in cheek). My point is that trading is not efficient; any economist will explain the reason we do not use a barter system at the grocery store. Killing the trade will mean killing the hobby. And no, I have no affiliation with aquaculture or making money from the hobby or anything. I'm a simple caveman lawyer.

Perhaps you'd care to apply for a federal permit to own a machine gun? Well, I suspect they won't issue you one, because the point of the permitting law was to outlaw machine guns. It will be the same for corals. Spreading false hope is much worse than spreading false alarm.
 
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Dsdaley77

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Ok I tried to circle points I believe back my stance, which as stated before is not FOR this to pass but to stop the freaking out everyone is doing. You can't read the future any better than I can so for you to say "this will happen, that will happen" is just speculation. You have no black and white to back your stance, here's mine ;)
ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365189663.503385.jpg

They would have to add additional regulations regarding "take" as it's not built in with "threatened" species. So for you to say it's already happening or it's going to happen is again speculation. You can post nothing deemed as proof to show otherwise.

ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365189804.560095.jpg

This section clearly states that agents must proceed with action that will in no way cause harm to the animal suspected to be on the list etc. Additionally this section speaks of permits to allow for "take". So again, please post some black and white to back your stance and not just provide speculation.

ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365189989.137787.jpg


Again, this section on a different page addresses the same issue of SEPARATING the endangered and threatened classifications. I agree that it says "threatened" specimens can have additional regulation added but since they have not been even published for discussion again it's just speculation on your part. No black or white.

ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365190172.796749.jpg

Seems to me here they are again worried about the health of the species, not how much they can or should be sold for.

ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365190247.315486.jpg

Here they give hard numbers, referencing that they didn't have enough data to proceed initially and after thousands of messages and hundreds of documents from the public and such, they felt comfortable now moving forward after eliminating several species from the proposed list.

So am I missing something?





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Dsdaley77

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All of these points above seem to be just what the rep told me as well.


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dankreef

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I knew I shouldn't have bought that extra mp40. This is starting to get me worried big time!
 
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I find it disturbing that nowhere in this discussion (at a macro level) can you even find anyone trying to evaluate whether prohibiting the "take" of certain corals for the marine aquarium trade will even make a measurable impact on coral populations in the wild. Prudent public policy should always begin by the definition of a measurable goal you seek to achieve. So, what is the goal? To save the reefs? How? Is prohibiting the "take" a viable solution? Will it lead to a discernable improvement in the health of the reefs? Frankly, the lack of concern for the efficacy of the regulations is shocking.
 

rlpardue

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I thought it might be interesting to post the number of "endangered" and "threatened" species which have been de-listed since the year 2000. There are currently 2,057 species listed as either threatened or endangered under the ESA. Since 2000, ELEVEN have been removed from the list. The US Fish & Wildlife Service is either very risk-averse or very bad at doing its job.
 
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Dsdaley77

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I find it disturbing that nowhere in this discussion (at a macro level) can you even find anyone trying to evaluate whether prohibiting the "take" of certain corals for the marine aquarium trade will even make a measurable impact on coral populations in the wild. Prudent public policy should always begin by the definition of a measurable goal you seek to achieve. So, what is the goal? To save the reefs? How? Is prohibiting the "take" a viable solution? Will it lead to a discernable improvement in the health of the reefs? Frankly, the lack of concern for the efficacy of the regulations is shocking.
And I do agree with you, but they were presented with a problem, publicly asked for additional info and "they" feel it's best to limit the "take" until the proper research is completed. They even say that in the pics I just posted.
I look at it this way, if they severely limit the "take" then allow permits to "take" for research and the likes they will get to the bottom of this. Then they/we can fix the problem and loosen the reigns. Win win long term for everyone.


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I thought it might be interesting to post the number of "endangered" and "threatened" species which have been de-listed since the year 2000. There are currently 2,057 species listed as either threatened or endangered under the ESA. Since 2000, ELEVEN have been removed from the list. The US Fish & Wildlife Service is either very risk-averse or very bad at doing its job.
When I searched I found this.....
ImageUploadedByReef2Reef Aquarium Forum1365192712.912283.jpg


http://uspolitics.about.com/od/legislatio1/tp/Endangered_Species_Act.htm
Here's a link to the page.

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