not alot of replies to many members' requests for icp test decoding, did we waste our money on icp?

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Bruce Burnett

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Well arsenic and bromide are poisons and yes I would Like to know how they get there as well
Are you on well water or city water. Could also be a faulty ICP test as that has happened before with Triton and arsenic. Are you using additives as many have bromide in them. How is the tank doing? Were they sky high or just elevated a little. If they are not in your supply water, salt or additives I would question the testing.
 

Isabel’s Hobby

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No water change systems are not for new reefers. Stick with them at your current every 10 days until you understand whats going on in your tank.
I’ve had this tank for 4 years and had success and failure and honestly I just want to figure it out but it seems it’s like a roller coaster one month great one month not so much
 

Isabel’s Hobby

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Are you on well water or city water. Could also be a faulty ICP test as that has happened before with Triton and arsenic. Are you using additives as many have bromide in them. How is the tank doing? Were they sky high or just elevated a little. If they are not in your supply water, salt or additives I would question the testing.
I m on city water but I get my water from LFS pre mixed so not adding any house water at all. Even the RO I get from LFS
I add magnesium calcium nopo and alk daily in small amounts. My tank after I got the iodine down is doing actually much better. Polyps are open everything looks great not growing much Great colors not decaying I guess that’s a plus
 
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Bruce Burnett

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I m on city water but I get my water from LFS pre mixed so not adding any house water at all. Even the RO I get from LFS
I add magnesium calcium nopo and alk daily in small amounts. My tank after I got the iodine down is doing actually much better. Polyps are open everything looks great not growing much Great colors not decaying I guess that’s a plus
Better and cost less in long run if you get your own ro/di system. Everything you are adding amount should be based on testing. Magnesium is not used up fast and can be done weekly. Even your nutrient levels should be used for how much if any nopox is used. What is your alk level, nitrate and phosphate levels that could be a big part of your problem nutrients to low.
 

90's reefer

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I m on city water but I get my water from LFS pre mixed so not adding any house water at all. Even the RO I get from LFS
I add magnesium calcium nopo and alk daily in small amounts. My tank after I got the iodine down is doing actually much better. Polyps are open everything looks great not growing much Great colors not decaying I guess that’s a plus
You need to test to determine what to dose.
Temp
SG
Alk
Ca
Mag
Po4
No3.
Test and dose those for
"stability".
A 4 year old tank will not be stable if the above parameters are not followed.
Any pics?
 

Riqaq

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I have published an article that discusses how I interpreted my Triton testing results here:

Thanks Randy, I haven't really touched on chemistry for 40 years, the article, was a good refresher.

I also never thought of searching for ICP in the forum (Doh!) the term never came into my mind. It would be informative to see other peoples opinions in the elements.

For everyone else reading this here is my limited experience with Lab Testing

Our LPS/SPS tank is also not LNS, but I am now vinegar dosing. (Our softie tank, I can't seem to get nitrate or phosphate in, the corals remove it straight away). The Corals are growing like crazy, but the colours were changing.

I mad a brainwave a couple of weeks ago and looked at the water results (from ATI Lab), and (as I also shied away from individual element dosing (I didn't want to spent all my evenings standing by the tank with little bottles), I looked up the ingredients of The Fauna Marin Color Elements and the Blue seemed to correspond with some of the things that were missing.

I started dosing that and I am seeing the start of colours coming back into some of the corals (I had thought it was just excessive zooxanthellae, from the high nitrate and phosphate).

Next the search for ICP, to see what the experienced reefer's opinions on elements are. Life is, after all a learning experience :)

Stay Safe and healthy all, Riq
 

Lasse

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I have published an article that discusses how I interpreted my Triton testing results here:

Can´t you not take that link as sticky on the chemistry forum. I think it was excellent even if I myself is more keen to try to adjust my parameters at least to NSW levels but not so afraid to have higher in some cases.

I think this is a good link according to trace elements too

For me - the ICP test is my main tool to check my own analyses and follow the development of my aquarium. I do not use it as a "when should I panic" tool - more like "see how it develops during time" - tool. Be aware of that you sometimes get values that can be wrong - if you do not find any plausible explanation and the aquarium looks good - just be calm and look at the next analyse.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Copingwithpods

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Can´t you not take that link as sticky on the chemistry forum. I think it was excellent even if I myself is more keen to try to adjust my parameters at least to NSW levels but not so afraid to have higher in some cases.

I think this is a good link according to trace elements too

For me - the ICP test is my main tool to check my own analyses and follow the development of my aquarium. I do not use it as a "when should I panic" tool - more like "see how it develops during time" - tool. Be aware of that you sometimes get values that can be wrong - if you do not find any plausible explanation and the aquarium looks good - just be calm and look at the next analyse.

Sincerely Lasse
I agree it shouldn't be taken as gospel more as a peer double checking your work.
 

Lasse

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Thanks Randy, I haven't really touched on chemistry for 40 years, the article, was a good refresher.

I also never thought of searching for ICP in the forum (Doh!) the term never came into my mind. It would be informative to see other peoples opinions in the elements.

For everyone else reading this here is my limited experience with Lab Testing

Our LPS/SPS tank is also not LNS, but I am now vinegar dosing. (Our softie tank, I can't seem to get nitrate or phosphate in, the corals remove it straight away). The Corals are growing like crazy, but the colours were changing.

I mad a brainwave a couple of weeks ago and looked at the water results (from ATI Lab), and (as I also shied away from individual element dosing (I didn't want to spent all my evenings standing by the tank with little bottles), I looked up the ingredients of The Fauna Marin Color Elements and the Blue seemed to correspond with some of the things that were missing.

I started dosing that and I am seeing the start of colours coming back into some of the corals (I had thought it was just excessive zooxanthellae, from the high nitrate and phosphate).

Next the search for ICP, to see what the experienced reefer's opinions on elements are. Life is, after all a learning experience :)

Stay Safe and healthy all, Riq
I have been dosing these mixtures before and (not from Fauna Marin - it was another brand) in my case - it ended up in a catastrophe. This was just months before the ICP tests was available. today it is probably more safe to use mixed additives if you use periodical ICP tests (I test every 3 - 4 months) but I still prefer single elements. The daily (more important) - dosing pumps and the others - after recommendation from the test company.

Sincerelöy Lasse
 

j0359m

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What I always tell people quit trying to change everything leave it alone let it stabilize. Just monitor and adjust alk and calcium especially the first year. Keep out of the tank more observation and less tinkering.
that was the whole problem, only paying attention to Ca dKH & Mg for the first 6 years left the water quality in a mess
 

NanJ

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I have had 2 tests done ... Icp ... the first showed me bromide and arsenic in the red. The second test a few weeks later both where even higher. Now to me that’s just scary stuff since bromide I read will be absorbed thru the skin
Someone did answer me on the first question .... arsenic was only like 0.003 but then it got up to 0.009
Anyone knows where that stuff comes from or the bromide and how dangerous is it for me to put my hands in the tank ?

9C7A86CD-7BE4-4992-9562-3678393CA5F4.png
6B9B6F7E-2FDB-418F-A678-C3F0B63B37DF.jpeg
To address your concerns about danger of tank water: I am not a toxicologist but worked in the field for years and so understand some basic concepts. Something that can be very confusing to understand is that an element (a chemical in it pure form, like bromine or mercury) can be harmless in one chemical form or toxic in another chemical form. It all depends on what other elements it is bound with in the molecule. For instance, cobalt is a naturally occurring element found in soil and water and is an essential element in our bodies. As an essential element cobalt is bound in an organic molecule (has carbon in it) but if it is bound in an inorganic molecule (no carbon in the molecule) it can be toxic depending on the molecule.

It is also an important point that ICP testing results are at the elemental level. The results tell us how much of the pure chemical is in the sample but not what the molecular composition is in the water sample. Therefore it does not give us enough information to evaluate the toxicity of the elements reported.

Natural sea water contains many, many elements because it reflects the minerals found in the earth's crust. Salt mixes try to mimic natural sea water to provide the trace elements needed by corals and fish.

You asked how dangerous is it to put your hands in your tank water. My view is no more risky than washing your hands at your sink or swimming in a lake or the ocean or floating in a pool. All water contains trace elements. (Disclaimer: toxic chemical contamination of oceans and rivers is way, way outside this discussion!)
 

Isabel’s Hobby

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You need to test to determine what to dose.
Temp
SG
Alk
Ca
Mag
Po4
No3.
Test and dose those for
"stability".
A 4 year old tank will not be stable if the above parameters are not followed.
Any pics?
______

77-78 F
The tank is 225 G

These results are from 3 days ago the store did it.

CDDF635D-D193-4E00-8B6D-BF413960BF0F.jpeg CA62FBED-7175-40CF-A3EE-278E82DDFB98.jpeg
 
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saf1

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Icp tests provides you with the results, that’s it.
Not 100% true. If you look at ATI's results they provided a recommended course of action. If the hobbyist doesn't understand, or agree, with recommendation they can send an email and will get answers. I can only speak of ATI since that is all I have used.

As for my reply to the OP no, they are not a waste of money per say. However, they are not a beginner type of test nor are they a requirement. People do answer but keep in mind all tanks are different and not all ICP tests are equal. Also the answers are not always so cut and dry.

Many may not agree with this but use them as a reference. Do a couple a year. Use the same testing company. Assuming the hobbyist is performing routine tasks similar you can assume to easily compare results between two tests and see how everything is going. You have eyes on tank and results. Easy.

I do not think ICP tests are emergency or reactionary but rather preventative and trends.
 

Crustaceon

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______

77-78 F
The tank is 225 G

These results are from 3 days ago the store did it.

CDDF635D-D193-4E00-8B6D-BF413960BF0F.jpeg CA62FBED-7175-40CF-A3EE-278E82DDFB98.jpeg
You’ll want detectable Po4 (.03 - .08ppm) and a little more Mg. I’d say 1320 - 1400ppm is a good range. I’d definitely want to know if the LFS used a hanna checker for that Po4 reading.
 

Isabel’s Hobby

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You’ll want detectable Po4 (.03 - .08ppm) and a little more Mg. I’d say 1320 - 1400ppm is a good range. I’d definitely want to know if the LFS used a hanna checker for that Po4 reading.
They did not just all with drops and so on
so how do i get the PO up ? Less NoPo dosing ?
Here is what I am dosing .......
I am running the pure chem GFO/Carbon as well one little bag in my sump
I really appreciate you’re taking the time to help me figure this out.

8E021D6E-79D1-4D96-9F69-796BD17E89B0.jpeg E4B98E68-A807-43DF-B6C4-B290735FBD1E.jpeg C14B3295-0736-44F3-816A-B50636A0B18F.jpeg 1EB136E6-2DC4-4303-AC15-7425FB389552.jpeg
 

Isabel’s Hobby

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To address your concerns about danger of tank water: I am not a toxicologist but worked in the field for years and so understand some basic concepts. Something that can be very confusing to understand is that an element (a chemical in it pure form, like bromine or mercury) can be harmless in one chemical form or toxic in another chemical form. It all depends on what other elements it is bound with in the molecule. For instance, cobalt is a naturally occurring element found in soil and water and is an essential element in our bodies. As an essential element cobalt is bound in an organic molecule (has carbon in it) but if it is bound in an inorganic molecule (no carbon in the molecule) it can be toxic depending on the molecule.

It is also an important point that ICP testing results are at the elemental level. The results tell us how much of the pure chemical is in the sample but not what the molecular composition is in the water sample. Therefore it does not give us enough information to evaluate the toxicity of the elements reported.

Natural sea water contains many, many elements because it reflects the minerals found in the earth's crust. Salt mixes try to mimic natural sea water to provide the trace elements needed by corals and fish.

You asked how dangerous is it to put your hands in your tank water. My view is no more risky than washing your hands at your sink or swimming in a lake or the ocean or floating in a pool. All water contains trace elements. (Disclaimer: toxic chemical contamination of oceans and rivers is way, way outside this discussion!)
Thank you so much that makes total sense and its an awesome explanation!!!! Thank you so much
 

Crustaceon

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They did not just all with drops and so on
so how do i get the PO up ? Less NoPo dosing ?
Here is what I am dosing .......
I am running the pure chem GFO/Carbon as well one little bag in my sump
I really appreciate you’re taking the time to help me figure this out.

8E021D6E-79D1-4D96-9F69-796BD17E89B0.jpeg E4B98E68-A807-43DF-B6C4-B290735FBD1E.jpeg C14B3295-0736-44F3-816A-B50636A0B18F.jpeg 1EB136E6-2DC4-4303-AC15-7425FB389552.jpeg
I would definitely stop dosing nopox with a zero phosphate reading. It can’t work anyways unless you have some degree of both nitrates and phosphates in your system. It’s also why we have a ton of carbon dosing threads where reefers dose tons of nopox/vinegar/vodka and have really high nitrates but zero phosphates. This is exactly how that scenario begins and can be prevented by adding a tiny bit of phosphates back into the system before adding your nopox dose. At 5ppm nitrates, I don’t think you have to add nopox at all.
 
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