NP-Bacto-Balance with active Phosphate removal

[Dennis Cartier]

I am at the point where I will need to transition from Elim-NP to NP-Bacto-Balance in the near future. My current readings are 0.2 NO3, 0.22 PO4 and a N : P ratio of 1.50. I have read the other threads providing info on transitioning, but I want to explore doing it a slightly different way.

I have a LaCl reactor that I operate 24x7 for long duration's, typically running for months at a time, that I use to slowly adjust my PO4 levels. Lot's of users use LaCl as a hammer, to make large, abrupt changes to PO4 levels. I use my reactor to be an adjustable phosphate sink, by controlling the percentage of the water column that flows through it on a daily basis, and how much LaCl is diluted within the reservoir. I am currently processing about 50% of my water column through it everyday, with 10 ml of (undiluted) TLF Phosban-L diluted in 5G of RODI in the reservoir, and the phosphate level on the effluent is ~0.04 PO4.

My thinking is this, because my NO3 is lower than I would like, I would like to switchover to using NP-Bacto-Balance, and keep my LaCl reactor online to deplete the inorganic phosphate that is still being released from past elevated levels. It is my understanding that the phosphates in NP-Bacto-Balance are organic in nature to try to minimize them being deposited on the substrate. So my LaCl should only remove the inorganic phosphate that was either released from the substrate, or that did not get used by corals and was converted to the inorganic form. My plan is to test daily, as I am doing now, and adjust the LaCl reactor to remove less PO4, and / or adjust the NP-Bacto-Balance to add less P as needed. My expectation is that I will eventually need to take the LaCl offline after the substrate levels have equalized within my target range (0.08 - 012 ppm).

Do you see any issues with my plan? Any suggestions on a better approach?

 

[Lou Ekus]

I am at the point where I will need to transition from Elim-NP to NP-Bacto-Balance in the near future. My current readings are 0.2 NO3, 0.22 PO4 and a N : P ratio of 1.50. I have read the other threads providing info on transitioning, but I want to explore doing it a slightly different way.

I have a LaCl reactor that I operate 24x7 for long duration's, typically running for months at a time, that I use to slowly adjust my PO4 levels. Lot's of users use LaCl as a hammer, to make large, abrupt changes to PO4 levels. I use my reactor to be an adjustable phosphate sink, by controlling the percentage of the water column that flows through it on a daily basis, and how much LaCl is diluted within the reservoir. I am currently processing about 50% of my water column through it everyday, with 10 ml of (undiluted) TLF Phosban-L diluted in 5G of RODI in the reservoir, and the phosphate level on the effluent is ~0.04 PO4.

My thinking is this, because my NO3 is lower than I would like, I would like to switchover to using NP-Bacto-Balance, and keep my LaCl reactor online to deplete the inorganic phosphate that is still being released from past elevated levels. It is my understanding that the phosphates in NP-Bacto-Balance are organic in nature to try to minimize them being deposited on the substrate. So my LaCl should only remove the inorganic phosphate that was either released from the substrate, or that did not get used by corals and was converted to the inorganic form. My plan is to test daily, as I am doing now, and adjust the LaCl reactor to remove less PO4, and / or adjust the NP-Bacto-Balance to add less P as needed. My expectation is that I will eventually need to take the LaCl offline after the substrate levels have equalized within my target range (0.08 - 012 ppm).

Do you see any issues with my plan? Any suggestions on a better approach?

I'm not sure that I understand the full approach you are taking, so I'm also not sure I can say if it is right on target or if there might be a better option.

I'm questioning this hard distinction that you are making between the "organic" phosphates and the "inorganic" phoshphates in your system. I am not a chemist! And I NEVER pretend to be one. So hopefully @Hans-Werner Balling or @Randy Holmes-Farley can chime in here and correct things that I say that might be less than accurate!
I assume your designated reactor "LaCl" is using lanthanum chloride. Again, not being a chemist, I'k not sure that will ONLY address inorganic phosphate. MAybe.
Also, the NP BACTO Balance is not just adding PO$ but it is also adding carbon dosing. So to say that you will "adjust the NP-Bacto-Balance to add less P as needed" is not really possible. An increase in the NP BACTO Balance will increase the PO4 going in, but also increase the carbon dosing going in to control the PO4 concentration. The whole purpose of NP BACTO Balance is to "maintain" your PO$ concentration, not increase it. If you want to increase your PO4 input, then you want to use PLUS NP. But that will also increase your NO3 concentration as well.
I hope this helps your sort out your situaiton. In my opinion, things get overly complicated if you are using lanthanum chloride carbon dosing at the same time. Lanthanum chloride is a great emmergency measure for when, if ever, the PO4 concentration gets crazy high and MUST be brought down quickly. But on as ongoing PO4 "maintenance" tool, I'm not as much of a fan.
Let's hope one of the folks I mentioned above comes in and clears this up with a more quantitative aproach than what I have offered you here.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Yes, that is the million dollar question. Does Lanthanum react with organic phosphates as well as inorganic?

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Ok, Randy has confirmed (in another thread) that organic phosphates can be bound by LaCl. So I will finish the final stage of phosphate reduction using a bit of ammonium dosing instead and discontinue LaCl use before bringing Bacto Balance online.

Thanks for the heads up Lou.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I am at the point where I will need to transition from Elim-NP to NP-Bacto-Balance in the near future. My current readings are 0.2 NO3, 0.22 PO4 and a N : P ratio of 1.50. I have read the other threads providing info on transitioning, but I want to explore doing it a slightly different way.

I have a LaCl reactor that I operate 24x7 for long duration's, typically running for months at a time, that I use to slowly adjust my PO4 levels. Lot's of users use LaCl as a hammer, to make large, abrupt changes to PO4 levels. I use my reactor to be an adjustable phosphate sink, by controlling the percentage of the water column that flows through it on a daily basis, and how much LaCl is diluted within the reservoir. I am currently processing about 50% of my water column through it everyday, with 10 ml of (undiluted) TLF Phosban-L diluted in 5G of RODI in the reservoir, and the phosphate level on the effluent is ~0.04 PO4.

My thinking is this, because my NO3 is lower than I would like, I would like to switchover to using NP-Bacto-Balance, and keep my LaCl reactor online to deplete the inorganic phosphate that is still being released from past elevated levels. It is my understanding that the phosphates in NP-Bacto-Balance are organic in nature to try to minimize them being deposited on the substrate. So my LaCl should only remove the inorganic phosphate that was either released from the substrate, or that did not get used by corals and was converted to the inorganic form. My plan is to test daily, as I am doing now, and adjust the LaCl reactor to remove less PO4, and / or adjust the NP-Bacto-Balance to add less P as needed. My expectation is that I will eventually need to take the LaCl offline after the substrate levels have equalized within my target range (0.08 - 012 ppm).

Do you see any issues with my plan? Any suggestions on a better approach?

The phosphates in NP-Bacto-Balance are not exactly organic phosphates but polyphosphates combined with an organic carbon dosing that further minimizes phosphate precipitation by increasing bacterial growth and activity.

Polyphosphates is also the natural storage form of phosphates in bacteria and algae.

If you want to supply only nitrogen without supplying phosphate I recommend Tropic Marin Amino-Organic which doses amino acids and other forms of organic nitrogen without phosphate. However, if it works for you, you can also continue with your own approach although it seems a bit conflicting, as you found out yourself.

In my eyes any ratio of nitrate and phosphate is ok as long as other forms of nitrogen are available to the corals, which is the case with any of our products.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

The phosphates in NP-Bacto-Balance are not exactly organic phosphates but polyphosphates combined with an organic carbon dosing that further minimizes phosphate precipitation by increasing bacterial growth and activity.

Polyphosphates is also the natural storage form of phosphates in bacteria and algae.

If you want to supply only nitrogen without supplying phosphate I recommend Tropic Marin Amino-Organic which doses amino acids and other forms of organic nitrogen without phosphate. However, if it works for you, you can also continue with your own approach although it seems a bit conflicting, as you found out yourself.

In my eyes any ratio of nitrate and phosphate is ok as long as other forms of nitrogen are available to the corals, which is the case with any of our products.

Thanks Hans. TM Amino-Organic was my first choice for the situation. I had read another thread where you, or Lou, had mentioned it in the context of nitrogen supplementation. Unfortunately I can't find it in my local market. None of the vendors carry it in Canada. I am not sure why.

I have started dosing a bit of ammonium (to my fuge) and will use that to raise N and pull P down so I can take the LaCl offline and then once P is low enough, make the transition to NP-Bacto-Balance. So a different route, but the destination remains the same.

 

[Coolbobjoe]

Thanks Hans. TM Amino-Organic was my first choice for the situation. I had read another thread where you, or Lou, had mentioned it in the context of nitrogen supplementation. Unfortunately I can't find it in my local market. None of the vendors carry it in Canada. I am not sure why.

I have started dosing a bit of ammonium (to my fuge) and will use that to raise N and pull P down so I can take the LaCl offline and then once P is low enough, make the transition to NP-Bacto-Balance. So a different route, but the destination remains the same.

Ive been running BB during my entire LaCl reactor and before drip use. I will continue to use it around 0.12 range for phosphates but will see increased benefits as the LaCl dosing goes way down though. Lou turned me onto it at MACNA but I use it a bit less and slightly higher end phosphate goal

 

[Pod_01]

Thanks Hans. TM Amino-Organic was my first choice for the situation. I had read another thread where you, or Lou, had mentioned it in the context of nitrogen supplementation. Unfortunately I can't find it in my local market. None of the vendors carry it in Canada. I am not sure why.

I have started dosing a bit of ammonium (to my fuge) and will use that to raise N and pull P down so I can take the LaCl offline and then once P is low enough, make the transition to NP-Bacto-Balance. So a different route, but the destination remains the same.

I see another Canadian unable to get TM products. This applies to all the unique items like Reef Actif, Amino-Organic, Nitrobiotic etc… The popular products like salt are easier to get. Even the carbon dosing products just within last year became somewhat available. Prior to that I had to import NP Bacto ballance from US.

I contacted quite few vendors about the unique items and I either get the sure will get it for you and then the radio silence or no reply from the start.
I have to say the other German Marine company has 100% better Canadian distribution model compared to TM. I wish TM followed their Canadian distribution model!!!

 

[Pod_01]

Thanks Hans. TM Amino-Organic was my first choice for the situation. I had read another thread where you, or Lou, had mentioned it in the context of nitrogen supplementation. Unfortunately I can't find it in my local market. None of the vendors carry it in Canada. I am not sure why.

I have started dosing a bit of ammonium (to my fuge) and will use that to raise N and pull P down so I can take the LaCl offline and then once P is low enough, make the transition to NP-Bacto-Balance. So a different route, but the destination remains the same.

Well it seems you might be in luck, I was just able to purchase “TM Amino-Organic” from Aquariumdepot online store.

Here is a link it might work https://aquariumdepot.ca/products/tropic-marin-amino-organic-250ml

Good luck. It only took about 1.5 years for it to show up in one store. Now if they could stock Reef Actif….

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Well it seems you might be in luck, I was just able to purchase “TM Amino-Organic” from Aquariumdepot online store.

Here is a link it might work https://aquariumdepot.ca/products/tropic-marin-amino-organic-250ml

Good luck. It only took about 1.5 years for it to show up in one store. Now if they could stock Reef Actif….

Hmm, I wonder if that had anything to do with me badgering Hussain to get it in, lol? That was about a month ago and their supplier was not showing it at the time. I will maike a point of asking for Reef Actif as well the next supply run I do. Perhaps it's now available from their supplier as well. We will see.

 

[peterhos]

Hmm, I wonder if that had anything to do with me badgering Hussain to get it in, lol? That was about a month ago and their supplier was not showing it at the time. I will maike a point of asking for Reef Actif as well the next supply run I do. Perhaps it's now available from their supplier as well. We will see.

Very late reply. Just seen your dog avatar…