NPS corals, heterotrophs or mixotroph

[Hans-Werner]

Yes that makes sense, this would mean that heterotrophic organisms wouldn’t be able to assimilate nitrogen and amino acids from the water column to make protein?

It differs. Heterotrophic bacteria can make use of ammonium or nitrate to make amino acids if they have a carbon source. This is also a way cows get protein from their symbiotic bacteria in their stomaches and intestines.

However, in general heterotrophic organisms need some "essential" amino acids they can't make themselves. The amino acids that are non-essential can be made by the organisms themselves.

The main difference between heterotrophic and autotrophic is the use of inorganic carbon. Only autotrophs can make organic carbon compounds from inorganic carbon like bicarbonate.

 

[J1a]

I think that’s what I’d like to discuss not all autotrophic organisms need light to obtain energy, sun coral for example could be getting Calcium and alkalinity and trace from the water column could they also be getting phosphates and nitrates from the water column making them mixotrophs? Or that is only possible if zooxanthellae is present in the coral?

It's worth noting that photoautotroph is not the only autotroph around. Chemoautotroph exists in the ocean as well (but in an environment vastly different from our reef tanks).

 

[sixty_reefer]

This article shows that both autotrophic and heterotrophic corals have the ability to synthesise amino acids that are considered essential (i.e. must form part of the diet) in most animals. I would suspect that the problem for most NPS is that there is insufficient organics in the water to sustain them and if enough organics are added to the water, then it would foul and cause bacterial blooms or other problems. For autotrophic corals, those organics are produced from within the corals and passed directly to the coral.
There are some xeniids that do not feed at all so while it is true that all corals need to eat (at least as far as I know), the same is not true for all soft corals.

It differs. Heterotrophic bacteria can make use of ammonium or nitrate to make amino acids if they have a carbon source. This is also a way cows get protein from their symbiotic bacteria in their stomaches and intestines.

However, in general heterotrophic organisms need some "essential" amino acids they can't make themselves. The amino acids that are non-essential can be made by the organisms themselves.

The main difference between heterotrophic and autotrophic is the use of inorganic carbon. Only autotrophs can make organic carbon compounds from inorganic carbon like bicarbonate.

thank you all for the input into this thread I believe that understanding if a organism if fully autotrophic or heterotrophic can aid the well being of the animal in question. I wasn’t aware that heterotrophs couldn’t produce all the essential amino acids that they need to make protein/muscle, probably the reason I wasn’t able to keep some of my NPS long therm.

on the example below, during one of my experiments to try and keep some of this coral there is a dendronephtya that was acquired in a bad condition, there is a slight improvement on the tissue of the coral during a 7-8 week period.

may the time I was dosing a amino acid blend to the system that eventually become overtaken by Cyanobacteria and I had to take the amino acids off line due to Cyanobacteria being able to use them somehow. A few weeks later the coral started to disintegrate again.
I don’t thought much at the time until recently we’re I started to study amino acids and they’re function. The only difference from the coral starting to improve tissue and deteriorate was the absence of amino acids and the reduction in organics, most likely due to Cyanobacteria taking over.
The coral doesn’t have polyps to eat all where melted at the beginning, could amino acids alone aid the regeneration of the muscle in the coral? I have re started aminos a few days back and the sun coral is now open full time (day and night) and the small dendronephtya stay puffed for long. Can amino acids alone be responsible for tissue regeneration? And if there is a chance that it is what’s the most complete amino acid that you have Hans? I am already using a few of your products to keep bacteria on a high level.

 

[sixty_reefer]

It's worth noting that photoautotroph is not the only autotroph around. Chemoautotroph exists in the ocean as well (but in an environment vastly different from our reef tanks).

I’ve read about chemoautotrophs some live not far from where some NPS live, mostly I’m very harsh conditions I believe.

 

[Hans-Werner]

may the time I was dosing a amino acid blend to the system that eventually become overtaken by Cyanobacteria and I had to take the amino acids off line due to Cyanobacteria being able to use them somehow. A few weeks later the coral started to disintegrate again.

Although most marine organisms can take up amino acids from the water and the modes of nutrition of azooxanthellate soft corals are not 100 % finally clarified they most likely live by filter feeding planktonic organisms like crustaceans, larvae, protists and phytoplankton. These organisms usually contain proteins with all essential amino acids.

I think the growth of cyanobacteria when using amino acids preparations is quite common. It shows that bacteria including cyanobacteria make use of the dissolved amino acids also and it is in question whether much of the dosed amino acids arrive at the corals or whether most are taken up and degraded by bacteria.

Particulate food like artemia nauplii, frozen plankton or dry powder feeds may be advantageous because they contain all essential nutrients, and by filter feeding the corals may get the food in a more concentrated form than the extremely diluted amino acid solution that the aquarium water is when dosing amino acids.

NPS may be fed with mysis, artemia and other small frozen food.

Nitrifying bacteria are chemoautotrophs. Ammonia oxidizing archaea (AOA) live inside corals and may be chemoautotrophic or mixotrophic.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Although most marine organisms can take up amino acids from the water and the modes of nutrition of azooxanthellate soft corals are not 100 % finally clarified they most likely live by filter feeding planktonic organisms like crustaceans, larvae, protists and phytoplankton. These organisms usually contain proteins with all essential amino acids.

NPS soft coral? Phytoplankton is fairly rich in amino acids, fatty acids and minerals hence starting to wonder if some of them can absorb this nutrient from the water column itself by the demineralisation process instead of ingestion.

I think the growth of cyanobacteria when using amino acids preparations is quite common. It shows that bacteria including cyanobacteria make use of the dissolved amino acids also and it is in question whether much of the dosed amino acids arrive at the corals or whether most are taken up and degraded by bacteria.

That’s a interesting observation, that makes sense I only had it happening once as the system was young, it didn’t took long to overcome the issue

Particulate food like artemia nauplii, frozen plankton or dry powder feeds may be advantageous because they contain all essential nutrients, and by filter feeding the corals may get the food in a more concentrated form than the extremely diluted amino acid solution that the aquarium water is when dosing amino acids.

NPS may be fed with mysis, artemia and other small frozen food.

for some NPS this may be the case although there’s no evidence to date that some NPS actually eat, blueberry gorgonians and dendronephtya are good examples as I believe several aquarists have tried all kinds of planktons without any successful results including Matt Wendell that done extensive studies on the feeding of this corals.

Nitrifying bacteria are chemoautotrophs. Ammonia oxidizing archaea (AOA) live inside corals and may be chemoautotrophic or mixotrophic.

Do ammonia oxidising archaea live in all corals? What would be they’re function some type of symbiotic relationship with the coral itself similar to zooxanthellae?

 

[sixty_reefer]

NPS can utilize organic nutrients from water column to a certain extent (e.g. Balanophyllia Elegans), but they cannot directly consume inorganic nutrients (see here and here).

This is what I tough it may be possible for some NPS corals the possibility that some may be able to be mixothrophs and use DON not DIN from the water column instead of planktonic organisms, excellent article. I can see many species of NPS react well to the increase of DON in the water column in system without planktonic organisms.

 

[firechild]

I think assuming NPS octocorals are the same as NPS corals is probably erroneous. I think when talking scientifically about corals, it is important to remember that octocorals are not corals.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I think assuming NPS octocorals are the same as NPS corals is probably erroneous. I think when talking scientifically about corals, it is important to remember that octocorals are not corals.

What would you class a octocoral to be, I always called them coral and there’s photosynthetic and non photosynthetic in that group I believe.
I always thought that octocoral is just referring to the number of tentacles in the coral polyps.

 

[J1a]

This is what I tough it may be possible for some NPS corals the possibility that some may be able to be mixothrophs and use DON not DIN from the water column instead of planktonic organisms, excellent article. I can see many species of NPS react well to the increase of DON in the water column in system without planktonic organisms.

If a coral make use of DON as "food", they are heterotrophs since they make use of organic source of carbon rather than inorganic carbon

 

[firechild]

What would you class a octocoral to be, I always called them coral and there’s photosynthetic and non photosynthetic in that group I believe.
I always thought that octocoral is just referring to the number of tentacles in the coral polyps.

Octocorals are a distinct division in the anthozoans from hexacorals (which include true corals, anemones, zoanthids and corallimorphs). While it is true that they can be identified by the number of tentacles per polyp, that is not the end of the differences. This study shows that octocorals do not make a monophyletic group with hexacorals so the differences are significant.

 

[Hans-Werner]

NPS soft coral? Phytoplankton is fairly rich in amino acids, fatty acids and minerals hence starting to wonder if some of them can absorb this nutrient from the water column itself by the demineralisation process instead of ingestion.

The images above show a Scleronephthya, an azooxanthellate soft coral, an octocoral.

There are some articles in scientific papers where the removal of phytoplankton in a dendronephthya field is discussed. Another article shows that they could satisfy their energy needs by feeding on artemia nauplii in an experiment. Like already mentioned most marine organisms can take up dissolved amino acids which still is heterotrophy.

Phytoplankton is autotrophic or mixotrophic. Most species can take up amino acids and vitamins and all can absorb minerals from the water.

 

[sixty_reefer]

If a coral make use of DON as "food", they are heterotrophs since they make use of organic source of carbon rather than inorganic carbon

I was thinking more in line with amino acids, proteins, nucleic acids, nucleotides and urea that are organic forms of nitrogen, true they all contain carbon and wouldn’t have a idea how they would use those forms of organics at this point. Used directly or indirectly.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes that makes sense, this would mean that heterotrophic organisms wouldn’t be able to assimilate nitrogen and amino acids from the water column to make protein?

That sentence is not true. Many heterotrophs take up amino acids and use them. Nitrate too. Also all of the organics you list above.

 

[sixty_reefer]

That sentence is not true. Many heterotrophs take up amino acids and use them. Nitrate too. Also all of the organics you list above.

That’s a game changer, this would mean that some heterotrophs can use both organic and inorganic N?

 

[Hans-Werner]

That’s a game changer, this would mean that some heterotrophs can use both organic and inorganic N?

I have written that heterotrophic bacteria may use ammonium and nitrate but they need organic carbon above, twice, I think.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I have written that heterotrophic bacteria may use ammonium and nitrate but they need organic carbon above, twice, I think.

In all honesty I didn’t add up as you mentioned that they can make they’re own amino acids through ammonia. This kind of makes me think of a another possibility that if some these corals could be limited by DOC as the heterotrophic bacteria in our systems. That is another propriety of phytoplankton. Wend I notice some improvement on that coral I was trying to accomplish artificial phytoplankton, I just cannot single out the ingredients that improved temporarily coral health and the aminos that I’ve used contain carbohydrates. Potentially the coral could of have used carbohydrates, amino acids, Organic and inorganic nitrogen, Phosphates and minerals to regain some health. From our discussion this are all possibilities for a heterotrophic organism to assimilate. To my knowledge Cyanobacteria can potentially use all the above also making it very difficult to single point one nutrient as they can be mixotrophs sometime.

on a side note, do you know if reef actif contains carbohydrates? I believe Lou mentioned that the product is made of seaweed and other plants.

 

[Hans-Werner]

on a side note, do you know if reef actif contains carbohydrates? I believe Lou mentioned that the product is made of seaweed and other plants.

Yes, this is correct. Reef Actif is in fact only carbohydrates, but of a special kind. It is all biopolymers, long-chain carbohydrates that are degraded mainly by specialized bacteria, fungi and other microorganisms.

Just today some experiments came to my mind how I can find out more about the microbiological effects of Reef Actif.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Yes, this is correct. Reef Actif is in fact only carbohydrates, but of a special kind. It is all biopolymers, long-chain carbohydrates that are degraded mainly by specialized bacteria, fungi and other microorganisms.

Just today some experiments came to my mind how I can find out more about the microbiological effects of Reef Actif.

Yes, I believe that’s what I’ve seen Lou saying, the long chains in the polymers of reef actif makes it harder for some undesirable organisms to break them down. Please do tell what the experiments you thinking.

I can see plenty of beneficial uses, in my system I started using it once I found out that it was made from seaweed, only a few weeks back and I’m liking the outcome. In my system I see a large decrease in build up of organics on the sand bed mainly. Due to the system not having mechanical filtration and a large import of nutrients I always had to vacuum the sand bed to remove build up detritus, since I’ve started using it the detritus on the sand bed is virtually non existent. I’m not absolutely sure on what was the idea behind the design although I’m enjoying not having to clean the sand bed as often. And due to be made from seaweed I am hoping for a large increase of bacteria in the sand bed and water column similar to phytoplankton properties without the pollution that phytoplankton can deliver sometimes.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Please do tell what the experiments you thinking.

I am thinkin of checking for solubilization of phosphates insoluble at normal pH, in reef tanks supplied with Reef Actif, especially for phosphate solubilizing microorganisms in the slime of corals.