Nutrients Are Confusing

atlantean

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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around running different nutrient levels and when to trust my nitrate and phosphate readings. I had a bit of bryopsis outbreak last week but was quickly brought under control with Vibrant. Right now my phosphate is 0 (using Hanna ULR) and nitrate is 0.2. Should I trust these numbers now that I don't have significant algae in the tank or do you think there will be a bigger delay in correct readings with the bryopsis at bay?

Also, I don't run a skimmer, so I'm hesitant to start feeding heavier since my only nutrient removal is water changes (and I guess chemical removal with chemi-pure and purigen). It seems like higher nutrients would make more sense in a larger tank that has a more robust filtration system (heavy-in/heavy-out) or a more mature tank. When is running ULR appropriate?
 

Futuretotm

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You may have had some nutrients
When you dosed in the vibrant aka bacteria = consumed everything
Hence the 0/0 reading
I'd be careful as 0/0 nutrients = dinos
 

Nano sapiens

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I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around running different nutrient levels and when to trust my nitrate and phosphate readings. I had a bit of bryopsis outbreak last week but was quickly brought under control with Vibrant. Right now my phosphate is 0 (using Hanna ULR) and nitrate is 0.2. Should I trust these numbers now that I don't have significant algae in the tank or do you think there will be a bigger delay in correct readings with the bryopsis at bay?

Also, I don't run a skimmer, so I'm hesitant to start feeding heavier since my only nutrient removal is water changes (and I guess chemical removal with chemi-pure and purigen). It seems like higher nutrients would make more sense in a larger tank that has a more robust filtration system (heavy-in/heavy-out) or a more mature tank. When is running ULR appropriate?

I just posted this on a similar thread (you are on the right track regarding 'new vs. mature' systems)...

The best reference as to whether long term low PO4 and NO3 is an issue is how your corals look. In a mature system that is fed regularly, this is often a non-issue as the PO4 and NO3 that are being measured by test kits are just residuals in the water column and the rest of the regular nutrient input is being assimilated by the tank's organisms (and in addition your PO4 test kit is only reading the inorganic form of phosphate and not the organic forms). Kind of like if I give you a cheeseburger for lunch and you eat all but a few crumbs that fall on the floor you'll still have received enough nutrients for maintenance and likely growth :)

If you have a newer and therefore less stable system it typically can't yet handle larger food input without becoming eutrophic ('more polluted'). When overfed and in response to algae and cyano outbreaks that thrive with the excess nutrients, many reef keepers tend to overcompensate by cutting the nutrients way down much too fast by feeding much less, adding more nutrient absorbing media, vigorous cleaning/detritus removal and/or larger water changes. All of which can then lead to nutrient levels that don't provide enough nutrients for the animals to even maintain a healthy metabolism and they start to loose color, tissue and eventually die off.
 
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atlantean

atlantean

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I just posted this on a similar thread (you are on the right track regarding 'new vs. mature' systems)...

The best reference as to whether long term low PO4 and NO3 is an issue is how your corals look. In a mature system that is fed regularly, this is often a non-issue as the PO4 and NO3 that are being measured by test kits are just residuals in the water column and the rest of the regular nutrient input is being assimilated by the tank's organisms (and in addition your PO4 test kit is only reading the inorganic form of phosphate and not the organic forms). Kind of like if I give you a cheeseburger for lunch and you eat all but a few crumbs that fall on the floor you'll still have received enough nutrients for maintenance and likely growth :)

If you have a newer and therefore less stable system it typically can't yet handle larger food input without becoming eutrophic ('more polluted'). When overfed and in response to algae and cyano outbreaks that thrive with the excess nutrients, many reef keepers tend to overcompensate by cutting the nutrients way down much too fast by feeding much less, adding more nutrient absorbing media, vigorous cleaning/detritus removal and/or larger water changes. All of which can then lead to nutrient levels that don't provide enough nutrients for the animals to even maintain a healthy metabolism and they start to loose color, tissue and eventually die off.
Considering that our test kits do not detect organic forms of PO4, does this mean deficiencies are more unlikely when not running a skimmer that would be pulling out the organic PO4? Also, how quickly would a coral fade due to excessively low phosphate or nitrate? Does it happen long term or can it happen in a week or two?
 

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Considering that our test kits do not detect organic forms of PO4, does this mean deficiencies are more unlikely when not running a skimmer that would be pulling out the organic PO4? Also, how quickly would a coral fade due to excessively low phosphate or nitrate? Does it happen long term or can it happen in a week or two?

Yes, skimmers pull out organics which could be utilized by in tank organisms. If an aquarium has too many organics, this can be a good thing. The opposite also holds true.

Corals store lipids (fats) in reserve just like other animals do in case of famine. How long those reserves last depends on the species, their starting condition and how long the famine condition lasts. In the long life of my current 12g nano, I once stopped feeding nearly completely (I believe that I didn't even have a single fish during this time, just a pellet or two once in a while for the hermits) to test the then still contested idea that many still had that all the corals really needed was light. I saw lightening/lack of pigment signs within ~1 month if memory serves. After 2-3, pasty greyish corals, but feeding the tank brought them all back to health in just a few weeks.
 
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atlantean

atlantean

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Yes, skimmers pull out organics which could be utilized by in tank organisms. If an aquarium has too many organics, this can be a good thing. The opposite also holds true.

Corals store lipids (fats) in reserve just like other animals do in case of famine. How long those reserves last depends on the species, their starting condition and how long the famine condition lasts. In the long life of my current 12g nano, I once stopped feeding nearly completely (I believe that I didn't even have a single fish during this time, just a pellet or two once in a while for the hermits) to test the then still contested idea that many still had that all the corals really needed was light. I saw lightening/lack of pigment signs within ~1 month if memory serves. After 2-3, pasty greyish corals, but feeding the tank brought them all back to health in just a few weeks.
Thank you, this is super helpful.
 
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atlantean

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I have been feeding reef chili every other day and doing more feedings with reef frenzy (as opposed to pellet food) to try and up the nutrient levels. I also add 5 drops of Coral Amino every day to the 20 gallon tank. Phosphate is hovering around .02 and nitrates continue to be undetectable. I'm perplexed, as I don't have a skimmer (just established live rock, matrix, and medium-depth sand bed). Hardly any algae growth right now other than some calcifying macros that came in on the live rock.

Tank is stocked with a tailspot blenny and 2 clowns. I think vibrant may have dropped my nutrients but its been a little over 2 weeks since I last dosed it. Is it time to start dosing nitrates just to get them up to at least something detectable? It seems a little risky to just dump even more uneaten food in the tank. Corals are still washed out and I don't want a few new additions to lose coloration as well.
 

Nano sapiens

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I have been feeding reef chili every other day and doing more feedings with reef frenzy (as opposed to pellet food) to try and up the nutrient levels. I also add 5 drops of Coral Amino every day to the 20 gallon tank. Phosphate is hovering around .02 and nitrates continue to be undetectable. I'm perplexed, as I don't have a skimmer (just established live rock, matrix, and medium-depth sand bed). Hardly any algae growth right now other than some calcifying macros that came in on the live rock.

Tank is stocked with a tailspot blenny and 2 clowns. I think vibrant may have dropped my nutrients but its been a little over 2 weeks since I last dosed it. Is it time to start dosing nitrates just to get them up to at least something detectable? It seems a little risky to just dump even more uneaten food in the tank. Corals are still washed out and I don't want a few new additions to lose coloration as well.

While dosing nitrates and phosphates has become a thing relatively recently, my own personal preference is to try feeding strategies first (I don't like to add additional processes/products to reefing unless truly necessary). In your case, PO4 is fine at 0.02 ppm, so you could concentrate on feeding foods relatively low in phosphates to maintain the relatively low PO4 level, but high in nitrates to increase the NO3 level.
 
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atlantean

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While dosing nitrates and phosphates has become a thing relatively recently, my own personal preference is to try feeding strategies first (I don't like to add additional processes/products to reefing unless truly necessary). In your case, PO4 is fine at 0.02 ppm, so you could concentrate on feeding foods relatively low in phosphates to maintain the relatively low PO4 level, but high in nitrates to increase the NO3 level.
Do you have recommendations? Maybe I should be doing Reef Frenzy 2x per day instead of 1x. My feeding regimen is definitely more than I was doing, which is why its surprising that I still have undetectable nitrates. Perhaps it just feels like a lot of food because my fish are all young. I could add another but I'm undecided on what I would expect to be my last fish for a 20 gallon.

I'd like to know what the differences are between elevating organics and thus nitrates, versus dosing nitrates and maintaining lower levels of organics. Obviously corals benefit from food, but if I'm feeding them, I'm not sure if its better to take the latter approach.
 

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Considering that no two reef systems function in exactly the same way, I'm not surprised to see a nitate or phosphate abundance or deficit. My 12g used to have low ranges of both naturally for many years, but various changes over the last few years brought about elevated NO3 challenges which I've finally been able to resolve. Typically, the issues we face are caused by us (knowingly or unknowingly).

To answer your question, considering just nitrate, whether adding via a product or by feeding is basically the same. The difference is that feeding adds phosphates, aminos, proteins, minerals, etc.) which while needed in smaller amounts, would be problematic in excess. That's why lower phosphate foods make sense in your case since you are trying to raise your nitrates, or using a nitrate adding product.

Sorry to add more complexity, but you don't really know if your corals are pale due to nitrate limitation or other factors. It could be that the organisms are using up all the nitrate and thus fulfilling their needs, but then there's nothing left to measure in the water column. The only way to know if nitrate is the limiting factor is to add enough nitrate to get a test kit reading for an extended period of time and monitor coral coloration and health.
 

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I would encourage you if at all possible to grow/harvest chaeto in your sump/fuge. The chaeto is great for nutrient export and tends to be self-regulating, growing like crazy when nutrient levels are high, and growing more modestly when nutrient levels are lower.
 
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Considering that no two reef systems function in exactly the same way, I'm not surprised to see a nitate or phosphate abundance or deficit. My 12g used to have low ranges of both naturally for many years, but various changes over the last few years brought about elevated NO3 challenges which I've finally been able to resolve. Typically, the issues we face are caused by us (knowingly or unknowingly).

To answer your question, considering just nitrate, whether adding via a product or by feeding is basically the same. The difference is that feeding adds phosphates, aminos, proteins, minerals, etc.) which while needed in smaller amounts, would be problematic in excess. That's why lower phosphate foods make sense in your case since you are trying to raise your nitrates, or using a nitrate adding product.

Sorry to add more complexity, but you don't really know if your corals are pale due to nitrate limitation or other factors. It could be that the organisms are using up all the nitrate and thus fulfilling their needs, but then there's nothing left to measure in the water column. The only way to know if nitrate is the limiting factor is to add enough nitrate to get a test kit reading for an extended period of time and monitor coral coloration and health.
As a short-term solution, I think I'll dose NeoNitrate just to get it to detectable levels. I don't think it will be necessary long-term, but then I have a little room to cautiously play with the food import without continuing to run undetectable levels.

Separate topic, but as someone with a lot of nano experience, are there any of the following fish you particularly like in your tanks (or others):
1) Orchid Dottyback
2) Pink Streaked Wrasse
3) Green Chromis
4) Bangaii Cardinal

I'd ideally like a more active fish that's visible across the room and adds life to it (I find lots of nano fish can be dull and passive swimmers). I have a nice amount of rock structure and swimming space, just no overhangs or caves until corals grow and form them.
 
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atlantean

atlantean

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I would encourage you if at all possible to grow/harvest chaeto in your sump/fuge. The chaeto is great for nutrient export and tends to be self-regulating, growing like crazy when nutrient levels are high, and growing more modestly when nutrient levels are lower.
Its an IM AIO so no sump. My second compartment just has matrix in it and I've definitely been considering the fuge option. Everyone seems to say skimmer over fuge though if you have to pick one. Kind of funny considering you can't buy a well-reviewed nano skimmer.
 
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atlantean

atlantean

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Listen to this guy.
I am. I mentioned earlier that I now have barely any algae now on the rocks so its not distorting the readings for the tank. Corals and other filter feeders could be consuming it, but if it remains undetectable I probably can safely assume my pale corals are still nitrogen-limited.
 

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As a short-term solution, I think I'll dose NeoNitrate just to get it to detectable levels. I don't think it will be necessary long-term, but then I have a little room to cautiously play with the food import without continuing to run undetectable levels.

Separate topic, but as someone with a lot of nano experience, are there any of the following fish you particularly like in your tanks (or others):
1) Orchid Dottyback
2) Pink Streaked Wrasse
3) Green Chromis
4) Bangaii Cardinal

I'd ideally like a more active fish that's visible across the room and adds life to it (I find lots of nano fish can be dull and passive swimmers). I have a nice amount of rock structure and swimming space, just no overhangs or caves until corals grow and form them.

Visible, high energy fish are a tougher one in a smaller nano. I like gobies and blennies, but not what you are looking for. Considering you have a 20g, I think any of those could do well except maybe the Green Chromis (no experience, but have seen in much larger systems), but from experience I would go with one that is peaceful and won't try to bite your hand every time you do something in the tank (that get's very old in a hurry).
 
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Nano sapiens

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I am. I mentioned earlier that I now have barely any algae now on the rocks so its not distorting the readings for the tank. Corals and other filter feeders could be consuming it, but if it remains undetectable I probably can safely assume my pale corals are still nitrogen-limited.

Or bacteria are. At any rate, adding NO3 is an easy one to do and may indeed improve your coral coloration. I would suggest limiting to 1-4 ppm as browning can occur at higher levels (my Birdsnest coral starts to brown out at 6 ppm or more)
 
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