Observation only QT

[HankstankXXL750]

I don’t like to medicate fish if it can be avoided. That being said I have metroplex and paraguard on hand for emergencies.
My question is, if you place fish in an observation system for 4-6 weeks with no signs of parasites or disease. Fish are eating, active, and appear full bodied, no white stringy poop etc, can you assume that you won’t be introducing a disease or parasite to your DT.
I am currently observing several fish. In multiple systems.

One set of angels (Atlantis blue, majestic, and passer’s) showed a couple of dots that I believed to be ich after a week or two in observation. I put them through the humblefish TTM Tank Transfer Method of switching to new tanks every 71 hours for two weeks. I lost the little blue on the next to last transfer (I believe I may have somehow ended up with very low salinity 1.015). Everyone was eating well and they all looked good to that point. The spots had disappeared also.
Two days after the final transfer the majestic developed s spot on his head near his eye, I don’t know if this is because I missed the last transfer? But anyway I started those two back through the TTM again. I guess I’m adding this to show that I do know what to look for.

so with all of that said, is observational quarantine sufficient to insure the safety of the DT, or is medicating necessary?

 

[Jekyl]

I don’t like to medicate fish if it can be avoided. That being said I have metroplex and paraguard on hand for emergencies.
My question is, if you place fish in an observation system for 4-6 weeks with no signs of parasites or disease. Fish are eating, active, and appear full bodied, no white stringy poop etc, can you assume that you won’t be introducing a disease or parasite to your DT.
I am currently observing several fish. In multiple systems.

One set of angels (Atlantis blue, majestic, and passer’s) showed a couple of dots that I believed to be ich after a week or two in observation. I put them through the humblefish TTM Tank Transfer Method of switching to new tanks every 71 hours for two weeks. I lost the little blue on the next to last transfer (I believe I may have somehow ended up with very low salinity 1.015). Everyone was eating well and they all looked good to that point. The spots had disappeared also.
Two days after the final transfer the majestic developed s spot on his head near his eye, I don’t know if this is because I missed the last transfer? But anyway I started those two back through the TTM again. I guess I’m adding this to show that I do know what to look for.

so with all of that said, is observational quarantine sufficient to insure the safety of the DT, or is medicating necessary?

Depends on who you ask. If concerned with quarantine there's always buying pre quarantined fish from a place like drreefsquarantinedfish.com

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Depends on who you ask. If concerned with quarantine there's always buying pre quarantined fish from a place like drreefsquarantinedfish.com

I have just found out about that, reef chasers who had the live sale last week does that as well. Again depends on who you talk to, some say that the meds can harm the fish as well. Don’t know if this means they could die during QT, or if it can shorten their lives. One reason I went to TTM over copper or formalin is that I don’t know which fish can’t be treated. Think I killed an Australian Harlequin Tuskfish with a paraguard dip when I developed velvet.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I don’t like to medicate fish if it can be avoided. That being said I have metroplex and paraguard on hand for emergencies.
My question is, if you place fish in an observation system for 4-6 weeks with no signs of parasites or disease. Fish are eating, active, and appear full bodied, no white stringy poop etc, can you assume that you won’t be introducing a disease or parasite to your DT.
I am currently observing several fish. In multiple systems.

One set of angels (Atlantis blue, majestic, and passer’s) showed a couple of dots that I believed to be ich after a week or two in observation. I put them through the humblefish TTM Tank Transfer Method of switching to new tanks every 71 hours for two weeks. I lost the little blue on the next to last transfer (I believe I may have somehow ended up with very low salinity 1.015). Everyone was eating well and they all looked good to that point. The spots had disappeared also.
Two days after the final transfer the majestic developed s spot on his head near his eye, I don’t know if this is because I missed the last transfer? But anyway I started those two back through the TTM again. I guess I’m adding this to show that I do know what to look for.

so with all of that said, is observational quarantine sufficient to insure the safety of the DT, or is medicating necessary?

TTM imposes stress on any given fish as it’s being moved around frequently. With a couple of dots, it may be lympho and a cause not to react . With absence of pictures preferably under white lighting, it’s hard to say what your fish have or had.
Ruby rally pro is a safe med to use in qt for general issues fish get
Same with general cure

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I don’t like to medicate fish if it can be avoided. That being said I have metroplex and paraguard on hand for emergencies.
My question is, if you place fish in an observation system for 4-6 weeks with no signs of parasites or disease. Fish are eating, active, and appear full bodied, no white stringy poop etc, can you assume that you won’t be introducing a disease or parasite to your DT.
I am currently observing several fish. In multiple systems.

One set of angels (Atlantis blue, majestic, and passer’s) showed a couple of dots that I believed to be ich after a week or two in observation. I put them through the humblefish TTM Tank Transfer Method of switching to new tanks every 71 hours for two weeks. I lost the little blue on the next to last transfer (I believe I may have somehow ended up with very low salinity 1.015). Everyone was eating well and they all looked good to that point. The spots had disappeared also.
Two days after the final transfer the majestic developed s spot on his head near his eye, I don’t know if this is because I missed the last transfer? But anyway I started those two back through the TTM again. I guess I’m adding this to show that I do know what to look for.

so with all of that said, is observational quarantine sufficient to insure the safety of the DT, or is medicating necessary?

Well, I never rely on observational quarantine. It helps weed Amyloodinium and a percentage of the cases of Cryptocaryon (but not all). It falls short at weeding out flukes.

The two drugs you mentioned are not very effective, you should take a look at our quarantine protocol in the sticky section at the top of this forum.

Tank transfer has issues as well - as you learned, timing is critical and the process is complicated. It also doesn’t handle flukes.

Jay

 

[HankstankXXL750]

TTM imposes stress on any given fish as it’s being moved around frequently. With a couple of dots, it may be lympho and a cause not to react . With absence of pictures preferably under white lighting, it’s hard to say what your fish have or had.
Ruby rally pro is a safe med to use in qt for general issues fish get
Same with general cure

Not the best pictures as there was film on the glass but this is what the blue Angel had it was the first one to show.
After the first round of TTM the majestic had a spot that looked very similar. Now on their second transfer in second round of TTM the passer looks “clean” but the majestic dropped the one on its face and now has two small spots on tail fin.
The spots looked roughly salt sized and appeared spherical.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not the best pictures as there was film on the glass but this is what the blue Angel had it was the first one to show.
After the first round of TTM the majestic had a spot that looked very similar. Now on their second transfer in second round of TTM the passer looks “clean” but the majestic dropped the one on its face and now has two small spots on tail fin.
The spots looked roughly salt sized and appeared spherical.

That looks like the start of Lymphocystis, are you familiar with that?

If not, here is an excerpt from some material that I wrote up on it:

Lymphocystis (cauliflower disease)
This is a common viral disease of marine, brackish, and certain freshwater fishes (usually those with marine relatives: glassfish and rainbowfish). It is a chronic (long-lasting) but self-limiting (usually going away on its own) syndrome caused by an iridovirus. The virus causes hypertrophy (enlargement) of the epithelial cells of a fish’s skin and fins.

Initial symptoms consist of off-white to gray nodules on the fish that spread and grow larger over a timeframe of 10 to 90 days. Commonly, when a Lymphocystis nodule forms on a pectoral fin, a new nodule will soon begin to form on the part of the fish that is brushed by the fin, indicating that direct contact can be a mode of spreading the infection.

When Lymphocystis first starts, the small growths can be misdiagnosed as a protozoan infection, such as Cryptocaryon, or even a bacterial infection. The fact that the lesions are long-lasting and do not cause the fish to become acutely ill rules out these more virulent diseases.

Since Lymphocystis is most often seen in newly imported fishes, capture and transport stresses are often mentioned as the stressors that allow this disease to take hold. While this may be true, it may also be that the cause is actually exposure to other infected fish in the aquarium systems of the exporter, importer, or retail suppliers. In any event, it is extremely rare for a fish held in captivity for more than four to six months to suddenly develop this disease.

Treatment with copper sulfate has also been implicated in the development of Lymphocystis in marine fish. The connection is actually not very clear, in that copper sulfate is most often used on newly imported fishes, and those are the ones that develop the disease most often.

Lymphocystis infections can sometimes become more serious, covering large areas of a fish’s body and even interfering with proper feeding if the cell growth involves areas around the mouth. In rare instances, the virus can also cause enlargement of the cells of internal organs, especially in marine fishes (Wolf 1988). This has the potential of causing serious, yet difficult-to-identify diseases in marine fishes.

A variety of cures have been suggested for this disease over the years. Some public aquarists have reported that a reduction in the animal’s environmental stress level will help reduce the severity of an infection. Others have reported that treatment with a mixture of malachite green and formalin (Quick Cure, Formalite, etc.) helps limit the spread of the lesions. Since both of these compounds can damage an aquarium’s bio-filter, and since both are toxic to fish, care must be taken if this method is attempted. By far, the most commonly recommended treatment involves surgically removing the hypertrophied skin cells, followed with a topical antibiotic to hopefully prevent secondary bacterial infection.

The general advice is to never intercede with a Lymphocystis infection—just let it run its course. The only exception might be if the fish develops a severe form of the disease and its mouth develops lesions that might inhibit it from feeding. Even in those extreme cases, surgery around the mouth will also cause the fish to stop feeding, so it may be better to just wait it out (Hemdal 2014).

 

[HankstankXXL750]

That looks like the start of Lymphocystis, are you familiar with that?

If not, here is an excerpt from some material that I wrote up on it:

Lymphocystis (cauliflower disease)
This is a common viral disease of marine, brackish, and certain freshwater fishes (usually those with marine relatives: glassfish and rainbowfish). It is a chronic (long-lasting) but self-limiting (usually going away on its own) syndrome caused by an iridovirus. The virus causes hypertrophy (enlargement) of the epithelial cells of a fish’s skin and fins.

Initial symptoms consist of off-white to gray nodules on the fish that spread and grow larger over a timeframe of 10 to 90 days. Commonly, when a Lymphocystis nodule forms on a pectoral fin, a new nodule will soon begin to form on the part of the fish that is brushed by the fin, indicating that direct contact can be a mode of spreading the infection.

When Lymphocystis first starts, the small growths can be misdiagnosed as a protozoan infection, such as Cryptocaryon, or even a bacterial infection. The fact that the lesions are long-lasting and do not cause the fish to become acutely ill rules out these more virulent diseases.

Since Lymphocystis is most often seen in newly imported fishes, capture and transport stresses are often mentioned as the stressors that allow this disease to take hold. While this may be true, it may also be that the cause is actually exposure to other infected fish in the aquarium systems of the exporter, importer, or retail suppliers. In any event, it is extremely rare for a fish held in captivity for more than four to six months to suddenly develop this disease.

Treatment with copper sulfate has also been implicated in the development of Lymphocystis in marine fish. The connection is actually not very clear, in that copper sulfate is most often used on newly imported fishes, and those are the ones that develop the disease most often.

Lymphocystis infections can sometimes become more serious, covering large areas of a fish’s body and even interfering with proper feeding if the cell growth involves areas around the mouth. In rare instances, the virus can also cause enlargement of the cells of internal organs, especially in marine fishes (Wolf 1988). This has the potential of causing serious, yet difficult-to-identify diseases in marine fishes.

A variety of cures have been suggested for this disease over the years. Some public aquarists have reported that a reduction in the animal’s environmental stress level will help reduce the severity of an infection. Others have reported that treatment with a mixture of malachite green and formalin (Quick Cure, Formalite, etc.) helps limit the spread of the lesions. Since both of these compounds can damage an aquarium’s bio-filter, and since both are toxic to fish, care must be taken if this method is attempted. By far, the most commonly recommended treatment involves surgically removing the hypertrophied skin cells, followed with a topical antibiotic to hopefully prevent secondary bacterial infection.

The general advice is to never intercede with a Lymphocystis infection—just let it run its course. The only exception might be if the fish develops a severe form of the disease and its mouth develops lesions that might inhibit it from feeding. Even in those extreme cases, surgery around the mouth will also cause the fish to stop feeding, so it may be better to just wait it out (Hemdal 2014).

From that write up, I don’t believe this is what they have/had. When I started the TTM the spots/specks on both the Atlantic blue and the passer/king disappeared within 24-48 hours not to return. I never saw any more spots develop on either fish and never saw any on the majestic. When I performed the final Transfer on day 13 neither the majestic or the passer showed any external signs. I was using a square plastic colander to transfer the fish as recommended. However I believe I pinched the majestic and maybe scuffed the majestic during the transfer. The spots on the majestic appeared on the edge of the scuff and then two smaller ones appeared on it tail fin. They are now in their second tank of the second round of TTM. (I will try to get some meds and treat, but only have a Petsmart in town). Now the majestic is clear around where it was scuffed, and it’s tail as well. However there is now a spot on it’s lower back fin. The passer is still clear. I have added pics of both.
An additional question as I seem to be having troubles with temp QT tanks. I have been culturing matrix in my DT sump for a period on 4 weeks. I then transfer this to the QT tank. But I am having ammonia show on my badges. In one 40 breeder I placed the media in the HOB, in the other I placed it on the bottom of the aquarium under the return of the HOB as it was new and came with media that I hope to culture in the tank. I have been adding seed and prime daily. Badge has been green in tank with media on bottom for three or four days. I did a 50% water change when it turned green but it hasn’t changed back to yellow. QTing a 2-3” miniatus and a 3” pink tail trigger. Feeding krill and PE mysis. Netting left overs after feeding. Fish have been active and eating. Today they appeared stressed with miniatus pale and trigger laying down (just an hour or so after my wife said the trigger was actively swimming) badge still green.
I moved them into a separate system but the trigger died.
Am I not giving the media enough time to seed, or is this not the best way to set up temp QT. I also run air stones in them.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

From that write up, I don’t believe this is what they have/had. When I started the TTM the spots/specks on both the Atlantic blue and the passer/king disappeared within 24-48 hours not to return. I never saw any more spots develop on either fish and never saw any on the majestic. When I performed the final Transfer on day 13 neither the majestic or the passer showed any external signs. I was using a square plastic colander to transfer the fish as recommended. However I believe I pinched the majestic and maybe scuffed the majestic during the transfer. The spots on the majestic appeared on the edge of the scuff and then two smaller ones appeared on it tail fin. They are now in their second tank of the second round of TTM. (I will try to get some meds and treat, but only have a Petsmart in town). Now the majestic is clear around where it was scuffed, and it’s tail as well. However there is now a spot on it’s lower back fin. The passer is still clear. I have added pics of both.
An additional question as I seem to be having troubles with temp QT tanks. I have been culturing matrix in my DT sump for a period on 4 weeks. I then transfer this to the QT tank. But I am having ammonia show on my badges. In one 40 breeder I placed the media in the HOB, in the other I placed it on the bottom of the aquarium under the return of the HOB as it was new and came with media that I hope to culture in the tank. I have been adding seed and prime daily. Badge has been green in tank with media on bottom for three or four days. I did a 50% water change when it turned green but it hasn’t changed back to yellow. QTing a 2-3” miniatus and a 3” pink tail trigger. Feeding krill and PE mysis. Netting left overs after feeding. Fish have been active and eating. Today they appeared stressed with miniatus pale and trigger laying down (just an hour or so after my wife said the trigger was actively swimming) badge still green.
I moved them into a separate system but the trigger died.
Am I not giving the media enough time to seed, or is this not the best way to set up temp QT. I also run air stones in them.

It is entirely possible that there is more than one issue going on. The first photos are pretty clearly Lymphocystis - see how they are perched right on the fin edge? The handling during TTM probably knocked the lesion off. Broken fin rays can also cause white bumps, but further down on the fin.
Question: are all three fish in the same tank?
Jay

 

[HankstankXXL750]

It is entirely possible that there is more than one issue going on. The first photos are pretty clearly Lymphocystis - see how they are perched right on the fin edge? The handling during TTM probably knocked the lesion off. Broken fin rays can also cause white bumps, but further down on the fin.
Question: are all three fish in the same tank?
Jay

The two that are left are in the same tank.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

The two that are left are in the same tank.

They were in a well cycled 40 breeder for observation QT. However I broke them all down and cleaned with vinegar to sterilize. The Atlantic blue died right after a transfer. They are now in 20 gallon tanks for TTM.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

It is entirely possible that there is more than one issue going on. The first photos are pretty clearly Lymphocystis - see how they are perched right on the fin edge? The handling during TTM probably knocked the lesion off. Broken fin rays can also cause white bumps, but further down on the fin.
Question: are all three fish in the same tank?
Jay

So if it is Lymphocystis from what you posted there is no cure. And apparently the blue got it or had it first and was so small it passed through the 1/2” grate that I used to separate the smaller majestic & blue from the Passer Angel. Now it appears that the majestic has either gotten it or broken out with ich. However it would seem really strange to me to get ich at the end of the TTM if they didn’t have it to start. So maybe it is only Lymphocystis. If that is the case, what should I do with these fish? Do I dare put them in a tank with other fish?

 

[HankstankXXL750]

It is entirely possible that there is more than one issue going on. The first photos are pretty clearly Lymphocystis - see how they are perched right on the fin edge? The handling during TTM probably knocked the lesion off. Broken fin rays can also cause white bumps, but further down on the fin.
Question: are all three fish in the same tank?
Jay

The majestic now has two spots on tail fin and one on bottom fin. It also hasn’t eaten for the last three days.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

The majestic now has two spots on tail fin and one on bottom fin. It also hasn’t eaten for the last three days.

It appears that I now have the same thing on my blue Koran.
I ordered this angel along with a xanthrus after I lost the Atlantic blue. These two went into a QT 40 breeder that the other angels were originally in. I did however break it down, washed it with well water. Scrubbed it with distilled white vinegar, let it all dry in front of a fan for two days then set back up with media from my reef sump. So I don’t believe this fish got it from my setup, but it did come from the same supplier. Is it possible that if the supplier has it that it could be infecting fish as they pass through? Also are angels more susceptible or is it just a fluke that it is the angels that are getting it? Two spots on the front of the top fin.

 

[Tired]

Diseases can be asymptomatic. Not seeing something doesn't mean the fish isn't infected, just that it isn't badly infected at this point. That's how people get diseases from fish stores- they buy a fish that looks healthy, then something stresses the fish or a half-incubated disease gets all the way incubated. Observational quarantine is no guarantee, but it is better than no QT- it'll let you catch anything that turns out to be obvious.

 

[HankstankXXL750]

Diseases can be asymptomatic. Not seeing something doesn't mean the fish isn't infected, just that it isn't badly infected at this point. That's how people get diseases from fish stores- they buy a fish that looks healthy, then something stresses the fish or a half-incubated disease gets all the way incubated. Observational quarantine is no guarantee, but it is better than no QT- it'll let you catch anything that turns out to be obvious.

I guess that my biggest fears have always been ich and velvet. As I understand them, if the fish are infected they will show up in less that 4-6 weeks. I have read articles about the stress of copper treatments and other meds. But I’m not sure if that is a select group of people who are enlightened and think of it as animal cruelty or not. I also have a hard time finding the right answer to which fish do not tolerate meds.
ie. Eels, lion fish and other smooth skinned fish. I found out after dipping a harlequin tusk fish for velvet as I was moving it to a hospital tank to treat that they don’t tolerate some meds. I can’t be sure wether the velvet overcame it, or if I killed it trying to treat it as it didn’t make it through the night.

 

[Tired]

I had a trimma goby show no signs of ich for a year, then have an outbreak. Velvet tends to make itself known pretty fast, but ich can stay at a tolerable (invisible) level for a long time, particularly on a fish fed a healthy diet.

A good medication-free way to get rid of ich is the tank transfer method. It's time-consuming, but it works.

Copper is highly stressful to some fish. Chloroquine phosphate is generally less stressful, as is hyposalinity. You do have to research and make sure that whatever fish you have is fine with whatever medication you're planning. Some fish will cruise right through medications that can kill other fish.

 

[eqbal9947]

From that write up, I don’t believe this is what they have/had. When I started the TTM the spots/specks on both the Atlantic blue and the passer/king disappeared within 24-48 hours not to return. I never saw any more spots develop on either fish and never saw any on the majestic. When I performed the final Transfer on day 13 neither the majestic or the passer showed any external signs. I was using a square plastic colander to transfer the fish as recommended. However I believe I pinched the majestic and maybe scuffed the majestic during the transfer. The spots on the majestic appeared on the edge of the scuff and then two smaller ones appeared on it tail fin. They are now in their second tank of the second round of TTM. (I will try to get some meds and treat, but only have a Petsmart in town). Now the majestic is clear around where it was scuffed, and it’s tail as well. However there is now a spot on it’s lower back fin. The passer is still clear. I have added pics of both.
An additional question as I seem to be having troubles with temp QT tanks. I have been culturing matrix in my DT sump for a period on 4 weeks. I then transfer this to the QT tank. But I am having ammonia show on my badges. In one 40 breeder I placed the media in the HOB, in the other I placed it on the bottom of the aquarium under the return of the HOB as it was new and came with media that I hope to culture in the tank. I have been adding seed and prime daily. Badge has been green in tank with media on bottom for three or four days. I did a 50% water change when it turned green but it hasn’t changed back to yellow. QTing a 2-3” miniatus and a 3” pink tail trigger. Feeding krill and PE mysis. Netting left overs after feeding. Fish have been active and eating. Today they appeared stressed with miniatus pale and trigger laying down (just an hour or so after my wife said the trigger was actively swimming) badge still green.
I moved them into a separate system but the trigger died.
Am I not giving the media enough time to seed, or is this not the best way to set up temp QT. I also run air stones in them.

When my Hippo had Lympho, it looked exactly like your pics and fell off a day or two after, but if I recall correctly it was the next day

 

[eqbal9947]

Im not an expert by any means but when I QT'd 2 different batches of fish, the chelated copper honestly didnt seem to affect them AT ALL. They act the same way they do now in the DT and might even be alittle but more shy as they used to eat from my hand and now the fear whenever I take lid off to feed them.
Surprises me when people talk about how bad copper is.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

It appears that I now have the same thing on my blue Koran.
I ordered this angel along with a xanthrus after I lost the Atlantic blue. These two went into a QT 40 breeder that the other angels were originally in. I did however break it down, washed it with well water. Scrubbed it with distilled white vinegar, let it all dry in front of a fan for two days then set back up with media from my reef sump. So I don’t believe this fish got it from my setup, but it did come from the same supplier. Is it possible that if the supplier has it that it could be infecting fish as they pass through? Also are angels more susceptible or is it just a fluke that it is the angels that are getting it? Two spots on the front of the top fin.

One thing I'm worried about is that you have a lot of angelfish, and I don't know their sizes, or how they are getting along, I don't trust Passers in with many other angels, certainly not a blue.

The picture of the majestic isn't clear, but the spots on the body likely aren't Lymphocystis and that never causes a fish to stop eating (unless the lesions are on the mouth) so, as I had suggested, multiple issues are going on here. Many majestics are collected with sodium cyanide, that causes mortality later on, with one of the key symptoms being not feeding.

Are you seeing rapid breathing in any fish?

If you decide to use a copper quarantine, do it right away - that takes 5 days to really start to work (as it is pretty gentle). The danger is that if you wait too long, any diseases gain a foothold and then the copper doesn't have time to work. People wait too long to dose copper, then they dose it, the fish dies and they blame the copper - when actually, it was the delay that caused the issue.

Jay