Old tank syndrome is vanquished in reefing now

[brandon429]

the cause of old tank syndrome is compounding whole waste particles that blanket the interstitial sand grain zones and plug up the channels in live rocks- in some cases it's sheer overgrowth allowed from various invasions that plugs up the surface area on live rock combined with a thin veneer of waste detritus that was retained vs expelled off surfaces. You can prevent old tank syndrome by changing the way you reef; the condition isn't 'inevitable'.

Want to see a reef tank design that is inherently immune to Old Tank Syndrome?

Too much area for beneficial bacteria

Dang man lol You sure didn’t overdo the display surface area by a country mile :) That’s one of the lower surface area reef displays I’ve seen, well done on the nsa scape. Very nice, very clean, and officially the lowest surface area reef tank I recall seeing. Heck I thought you’d have a 260lb...

www.reef2reef.com

Compare that tank above and it's presentation details to any other system we work in this thread: compounding catchment of waste and allowed invasion is not part of that system plan above (so far, at least)

allowing rocks to be covered in various blanketing items changes the means by which they can expel pellets of waste from the included animals inside the rock pores and channels...fast current would pull those wastes away much better than a plant that catches and holds all the mass at the attachment points. This causes your live rock surface area to become reduced/inefficient as it presents to the wastewater in the tank

Choosing to leave algae and blanketing masses in place as you seek remedy vs the habit of always removing them manually and then seeking remedy is part of the cause events that bring on Old Tank Syndrome and coral/animal loss to reef tanks. You will see us being very proactive here with physical means to reverse or prevent this condition in our focus examples



Old tank syndrome is the gradual reduction of open, high flow contact reef tank surface area via compounding waste and invasion blanketing. Dense mats of oxygen sapping aerobes capitalize on the waste as energy substrate, adding waste acids and cellular irritants into a system that prefers stable high-quality water parameters

Old Tank Syndrome can also include irritating and allelopathic plant/waste bacteria compounds circulating in the system that have been left there over time

Ever rinsed your Ocean Rock?

Just curious.

www.reef2reef.com

see that post, that's undoing of Old Tank Syndrome

free. no dosers no testing required.

here's another, good enough to be elevated to page one status for copy

A week without power - Recoverable?

So, tank went without power for a week following hurricane Ida. There was no flow(obviously) and temps hit 85-86 during the day. I came back to the city to rescue my 2 clowns who are currently living in a 5 gallon bucket with a bubbler. Basically my question is: what are my options from here...

www.reef2reef.com

We control OTS now, it doesn’t creep by surprise in any reef tank, we can reverse the condition by rip cleaning and mass export.

***We didn't have to use CIPRO or any other antibiotic to protect corals here**

we now know how to keep reef tanks running with indefinite biological lifespan where a set of rocks never runs out of ability-old tank syndrome is now vanquished in reefing.





my own testing too identified simple tank waste as the causative and now pico reefs live indefinitely 20 yrs + packed to the hilt, free of coral disease.




removing slough means natural bacteria handle things in your reef tank. You will notice a trend nowadays for costly $ bacterial DNA testing + dosing/adding of 'biome-enhancing' media as a means to control the longevity and quality balance of your reef. that's a purposeful design to take your cash and sell you on adding things to a reef tank to benefit it. But look at our jobs: nothing added, compounds were removed. Your natural biome can process things just fine once you remove the clogs of waste and algae preventing them from doing so. In this thread, the reefkeeper becomes the grazer they wish they always had.



Having a eutrophic reef tank (sandbed or rocks) is a dangerous condition that can kill your animals if you mess with the sand using no particular order of ops.

see this outcome:

Disturbed sand bed.

I have a 75 gallon fowlr tank that has been up for about 2 years. I have had nothing but trouble with this tank. Long story short i decided to clean tank yesterday. Toothbrush to rock and vacuum out detritus. I stirred up sand a little with the vacuum but worse the circulation pump must have...

www.reef2reef.com

The eutrophic condition inside common sandbeds can kill our animals, but it doesn't always happen, it sometimes does. Being cloud free in reefing is always safer, for everyone. Sandbed 'diversity' isn't really that diverse... we mainly keep waste mud and a couple worms... that's not diversity, that's risk. It is ok to clean these sandbeds, we didn't need their bacteria as live rock bacteria does all we need (this is why bare bottom systems run just fine)


*****Posted in another thread by

FlowGod​

look at this research-level study on the effects of oxygen suppression and excess on coral ecosystems and corals:

a nice way to reinstate oxygenation is to remove all smothering blanketing mass from the active surface area of a reef tank.

 

[ReeferBud]

Would be curious about the best methods people use to keep the sandbed clean.

I know there’s a strong debate with arguments in both sides between a sandbed and bare bottom tanks.

I’ve always been in the camp that I keep a reef tank because I love the ocean and marine life and want to experience that in my home (since I can’t scuba dive as much as I’d like to) and I just couldn’t imagine a reef tank without sand.

my routine involves:
- stirring the sandbed 2x/week with an old kent algae scraper with long handle, getting detritus suspended so that the filter socks and skimmer can export
- use a strainer with a handle 4x/year I found on Amazon that does a great job of sifting out the inevitable larger pieces of rock and coral that fall on the sand and make it look ugly
- vacuum 1x/year but have been remiss with this one the last couple of years

 

[brandon429]

the oceanographic term for old tank syndrome is called eutrophication.

when we read about eutrophic reef systems that’s old tank syndrome occurring in nature, near farm runoff for example.


the antithesis for eutrophication is reinstating oligotrophic conditions, which are the opposite of high storage low flow plant-based and scum-based systems.

oligotrophic reef: high oxygenation, high flow, high export throughput, low disease, low water dwell time no pocketing, clean lighting high degree of suspended live feed but not dissolved nutrients. Low plant dominance, low scum layer dominance high level support for hermatypic/ reef-building corals. The highest level of ammonia conversion works here because surfaces are not plugged with waste and surface area contact is higher and speedier

eutrophic reef: the polar opposite of every character above.


oligo is so in, it’s hip.

 

[brandon429]

I too use sand, bare bottom looks too empty.


mine is neglected two years not cleaned, then just catch up rip cleaned or all new sand. Agreed many ways to manage as long as we aren’t hands-offing

right on the down slope of the bell curve I use a rip clean to move me back to the other upside of the bell curve.
Over and over, as long as I’m alive to reef this one single system will be flipped from eutrophic to oligotrophic at my whim.

the old rules simply tried to slow the original bell curve vs reset it indefinitely. They didn’t understand cycling well enough to know that certain methods of cleaning don’t reset the cycle bacteria. They had to be hands off by default for safety, fear of bacteria loss rules all old reefing tactical manuals

stick stirring for prevention is ideal too agreed. Feeds corals a little bit in the process and exposes waste for export in flosses etc

 

[Tiki Reef Joshua]

Yea... I just stir a few times a week, stir before cleaning, have a few wrasses and a conch.... that’s mostly all I have needed to do for beautiful sand. I also siphon out sump detritus at WC. It’s just about cleanliness. Maybe one day I’ll need to pull the sand and rinse it but for now it stays pretty clean.

 

[ReeferBud]

I would also add that it’s important to maintain a relatively clean sump. I don’t mean sparkling like the folks that spend more on sumps than tanks, but at least to the level where there’s not an accumulation of organic matter that can cause the same things we’re trying to prevent in an unkept sandbed.

 

[Tiki Reef Joshua]

Totally agree. Clean the sump. The only thing I neglected is my overflow box. I’m sure there is a ton of detritus in there. Especially since I don’t use any feed modes.

 

[ReeferBud]

Totally agree. Clean the sump. The only thing I neglected is my overflow box. I’m sure there is a ton of detritus in there. Especially since I don’t use any feed modes.

Oh yes! Great add. Overflow box is a typical overlooked area of buildup of detritus.

 

[brandon429]

Friends on rtr have taken time to analyze detritus for nutrient capacity and the current trend shows that oxygenated piles of waste are high in ash and low in overall waste loading as they’ve been capitalized by various forms of aerobic life in succession


that’s my understanding from Tarichas and Dans posts.

stores of waste deep within rock pores and in common sand, that sits piled on the bottom and not disturbed seem associated with the loss posts vs the aerated forms of waste

it’s why Paul can upwell his entire reef in a diatom filter cleaning run and nothing dies, but this fella takes one handfull from a NON reverse under gravel system and kills all his fish only by adding one handful of sand from an old tank into a new one. They didn’t die before the sand was added.

Upgrade disaster

Recently had a huge leak in our 90 gal reef which forced us to upgrade sooner than expected . The upgrade being a 230 gal with a 48 gal sump . Mistake #1 I added some of the old sand assuming it would be beneficial to have a little bacteria .. I was wrong . Nuked the whole tank killing all fish...

www.reef2reef.com

the gradient between these two extremes is waste loading, sites of loading, states of decay vs reduction, and old tank syndrome


eutrophicated sand vs oligotrophic sand zone due to oxygenation and routine cleaning makes the difference

 

[Paul B]

Brandon, I love this. I wrote an article about it a few years ago. I don't want to crash your thread as it is kind of long.

Old Tank Syndrome

Is this a myth? Something we heard about in the deep abbesses of when the hobby started (I think it was on a Tuesday) Is this something we need to worry about. Like we don't have enough to worry about with the heartbreak of psoriasis and wondering if we will be accepted into the "Hair club for men".

I realize the vast majority of tanks crash, or for some reason fail to thrive for more than a few years. Why is that? Is it due to Old Tank Syndrome, Wikileaks, or something else?

Tanks crash for all sorts of reasons, disease (affecting the tank, or us) financing is a big one. it could be a decision to buy another nose ring or a blue legged hermit crab. It could be lack of interest, (I think that is a big one) Sometimes our spouse just doesn't want a tank, although I don't know why one would have such a spouse.

Many tanks crash due to a power failure, flood, earthquake, hair algae, cyano or my favorite RAP music.

I think I have the answer to all these problems. Noah and I used to sit on the Ark and ponder these things.

I think lack of interest is the biggest factor and probably the hardest to rectify. If you don't have any interest it is probably better if you quit and go on to other things. It is silly to keep pouring money into something that you lost your love for. Of course all of us lose interest in some parts of the hobby over time. For instance when my fish spawn for the first time, I get all excited and send out cigars. Then I sit up all night and feed and name each baby. But after that fish spawns many times, I will not get as excited, (but I will run out of names) although I will still never lose my interest as I still find it fascinating. When those things happen, I embrace other parts of the hobby like building my own rocks or spawning different fish.

Re aquascape. Don't worry about mini cycles (Whatever that is) Just remove your rock and corals and put them in a different place. It's a hobby, have fun with it. If a coral dies, better it than you. You need to keep up the interest.

Finances seems to be a big problem, but I have not found that to be a problem. Of course if you are the type of person that must have the biggest, best and most expensive new, shiny thing that comes out, you of course can go broke. My 100 gallon tank costs me $960.00 a year to keep. That is a lot of money but I spend more on pictures of Supermodels or those little plastic things on the end of my shoelaces.

I feed clams and live blackworms. The worms cost a bit but the clams are very cheap. If you live in Arizona or Utah, the clams may be a little high, I really don't know. I change water about 5 times a year. I realize a lot of people feel the need to change an ounce of water every three hours, but that is IMO not necessary unless you feed your fish a side of beef twice a day.

Rap music, I have no control of but it is not played in my house and if it was, I would wrap my tank (and my head) in bubble wrap.

Lets talk about crashing. Except for disease (which I wrote about elsewhere) the biggest cause of "Old Tank Syndrome" is caused by bacteria, or lack of them. Bacteria run our tanks and we are just here for the bacteria to make fun of, especially if we wear a Speedo near our tank. Bacteria clean the water for us for free. Changing the water can help the bacteria, but if we change it too much, it can make the bacteria mad. There is a reason new tanks with all new water are not very healthy. But, that doesn't mean we should stop changing water.

The bacteria, eventually need our help. In the sea they don't need help because someone there helps them. Mother Nature. In the sea Mother Nature provides typhoons. I also provide typhoons in my tank as much as I can. Let me explain.

The bacteria rely on surface area to do their job. They also need food in the form of nutrients and "some" but not all bacteria need oxygen. Bacteria live on all surfaces, even (unfortunately) your girlfriends nose ring. If you tried to keep fish alive in a bare tank, you would have to change the water almost daily because there is not enough room for bacteria to grow. This is also why a tank with a bare bottom can not support as many fish as a tank with gravel. It is just math. I am not too good in Math but the bacteria are great at it. The more spaces they have, the more they will multiply. They will grow on top of each other, but only up to a limit. Suppose you were to try to live like that. Think about it. Bacteria need surfaces and in our tanks, the surfaces are mostly on the substrate and the rocks. Not just on the rocks, but inside them, in the pores. The "rocks" we use in our tanks are not even real rocks. They were built by microscope creatures living on the rock. The creatures exuded this material and in the process of doing this, the "rock" was built full of pores. Inside these pores live the bacteria. The aerobic bacteria live near the surface and use the oxygen abundant there. The anaerobic bacteria live deeper in the pores and need far less, if any oxygen. I think they have larger noses to utilize the inadequate supplies of oxygen. Those are the bacteria that convert the nitrates to nitrate gas that escapes.

The problem is over time, those pores clog and those anaerobic bacteria, although can live in clogged pores, have no access to our tank water so they can't process wastes. When that happens, they can no longer do the macarana or any dance so they will die and become part of the stuff that is clogging the pores.

This is a 2" sewer pipe I removed from my house. All pores will eventually clog like this given enough time. No, Liquid Plumber will not fix this.



This is where we come in. As I said the sea has Mother Nature, but we have power filters. I use a diatom filter which is just a canister filter with a powerful pump. It also removes tiny particles much smaller than a normal canister filter but we do not need to remove particles that small. We mainly need something with a strong pump. You can use a turkey baster but that is a Sissy way to do it and most of the bacteria will just laugh at you. You may have to put your ear to the glass to hear them, but trust me, they are laughing.

I use one of these every day, mostly for target feeding but I also blow off the rocks. As I said, this is a Sissy way to do it and it won't make up for the major cleaning with the filter.



On the outflow of my power filter I install a nozzle. I make that out of one of those little green plastic things that florists put carnations in to keep them alive. You can get them from a florist for a few cents. They look like a small funnel but the hole is closed so you need to drill a hole in the small end. If there are no florists near you, move or make something else. This is not rocket science just find a way to make the end of the outflow hose smaller.

You can see those green plastic things here. I also use them to build venture valves.


This will provide a strong stream of water that you carefully aim at your exposed rock surfaces. Do not hit your corals with it unless you want to buy new corals or make soup. If your corals are moveable, lift them to get under them. Power wash all the surfaces you can and you will be amazed at how much stuff comes out of the rocks. You will also be amazed at how many things your spouse can come up for you to do instead of doing this.

In my tank I use a reverse under gravel filter (OK, stop laughing) so I can do this to my gravel, but if you have sand, be very careful. If you have a DSB, IMO your tank won't last more than ten or twelve years anyway so you are on your own, but at least do it to the rocks.

I only perform this maintenance once or twice a year and so far, after 45 years, it seems to have worked. Of course I never play Rap music especially if I am wearing my Speedo.
When you are done, you can take a video of your tank and show it to your neighbors on your projector.


Report Edit

 

[brandon429]

Paul, pictures like that have caused me to quit drinking tap water in my apartment

before such profound eutrophication of piping was known, I drank free water to the max. Now I buy oligotrophic bottled water heh, that pipe pic caused it. I bet my innards are cleaner now lol judging off changed input sourcing

 

[ReeferBud]

Paul, pictures like that have caused me to quit drinking tap water in my apartment

before such profound eutrophication of piping was known, I drank free water to the max. Now I buy oligotrophic bottled water heh, that pipe pic caused it. I bet my innards are cleaner now lol judging off changed input sourcing

after years and years of using RODI for my aquarium and hearing complaints at home that the fish have better water than what we humans drink, I’ve installed a RO drinking water system under the sink and I’ll have to say I’m quite happy with it.

those pics are scary!

 

[brandon429]

I knew pipes had pipe slough but drank anyway


when I envisioned pipe slough though never having actually sawed through a home pipe to know, I foresaw a thin veneer of slicks probably indistinguishable from the pipe wall itself.


the pic above appears Paul has a peanut butter pump and the pipes move butter not water. Its so bad. Nowadays when brushing teeth using sink water it haunts


eutrophication is happening on teeth if we brush with that lol

 

[ReeferBud]

On the outflow of my power filter I install a nozzle. I make that out of one of those little green plastic things that florists put carnations in to keep them alive. You can get them from a florist for a few cents. They look like a small funnel but the hole is closed so you need to drill a hole in the small end. If there are no florists near you, move or make something else. This is not rocket science just find a way to make the end of the outflow hose smaller.

this is really good advice and something I’ve been wanting to try for some time. I really like the analogy of power washing the rocks!

just thinking, I wonder if I could devise a way to slip a tube and nozzle to the output of my return lock line to be able to power wash the rocks. If it works, it would be even better than the alternative I’ve been thinking about which was to simply have a little power head that I’d use as a “blower” motor.

 

[DaddyFish]

My question is... Why is that roll of Scotch tape so clean?

 

[brandon429]

Following old rules for stability leads one to total waste storage, and trying to slow a bell curve vs instantly flip it back to the upside using skip cycle cleaning science and then preventative events thereafter. by cleaning tanks here correctly, we reinstate upside of the bell curve vs the downside.

 

[Paul B]

Brandon, that pipe I removed from my house (for obvious reasons) was installed in 1959. It took 60 years for that pipe to get to that condition, but that is a 2" pipe which actually has a diameter of almost 2 1/2". Imagine a tiny pore in a rock.
I replaced those pipes with plastic.

 

[brandon429]

Excellent yes agreed and solid procedural video thats perfect reference.


the hobby has discovered interesting approaches such as sandbeds in sumps vs up under fish as helpful relocation of high surface area to reduce waste holding, or we can do reverse under gravel flow per above to keep waste oxygenated vs sinked and stratified + physical storm simulation events to keep things unsinked


others have trended towards barely any live rock at all, no sand anywhere, massive coral size which makes use of updated surface area mechanics to create high flow conditions that expose wastewater to contact surfaces without having to overdo the contact surfaces for once.


and then a large portion do everything in between such as sand stirring preventatively right from the start of the tank or catch up precision rip cleans after months of accumulation


we are all controlling symptoms by controlling compounding, thats the universal link to old age reef tanks


and yes I realize another fifty tanks in the world are twenty years old no water change no sandbed cleaning looks perfect


Bob Ross made trees with a smear of paint...patterned replication matters now the most, as people now want safe outcomes for their multi thousand dollar investments. Though not every reef has to be kept clean to live long and prosper, every reef that is kept clean will be immune to OTS and the rule works for everyone.

we can buy as much time as we need through export and import of whole waste matter until we luck upon or master the alternative.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

Hey guys 20 year old sps tank here. Most my rock I have owned and kept wet for thirty years.

rip clean or typhoon done two years ago. All sps placed within the last 14 months. This is an old school live rock pile reef.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

My tank is Not as old as paul’s copperband. Lol. My clown is 17 years with me.