PAR Meter?

[RoanokeReef]

To be fair, I believe that they have disclosed this, let me look...

As far as the link, you're right, this one was not very long. But, member ScottJ was asking me about this because typically links from Amazon - with or without any affiliate tags - are very, very long, like three or four lines here on R2R. I have just gotten in the habit of typing out what I want to link, and then making that text the live hyperlink. In this case, that was probably not needed.

It's not disclosed if you have to search for it as a random reply to another thread, but I'll leave it at that.

Anyways I would really like to see the links fixed as it's frustrating visiting past threads with links that are broke. This is one of the only forums where it's in an issue that I visit.

 

[Fish Fan]

It's not disclosed if you have to search for it as a random reply to another thread, but I'll leave it at that.

Anyways I would really like to see the links fixed as it's frustrating visiting past threads with links that are broke. This is one of the only forums where it's in an issue that I visit.

Good point about searching, I was actually just looking for something in the TOS.

I'm not following your other concern, are you saying that if you go back and visit an old thread and someone there posted a link to the big online bookstore, that link is now broken? If so, is it definitely broken because of the change here at R2R, or did the link at Amazon maybe change or the product is no longer available?

 

[RoanokeReef]

Good point about searching, I was actually just looking for something in the TOS.

I'm not following your other concern, are you saying that if you go back and visit an old thread and someone there posted a link to the big online bookstore, that link is now broken? If so, is it definitely broken because of the change here at R2R, or did the link at Amazon maybe change or the product is no longer available?

A lot of the amazon links end up forwards to https://amzn.to/3W92uhB if you don't use the insert link. The post you just linked to was also complaining of the same issue in the first post Below is an Amazon dead link -

 

[RoanokeReef]

.

 

[Fish Fan]

A lot of the amazon links end up forwards to https://amzn.to/3W92uhB if you don't use the insert link. The post you just linked to was also complaining of the same issue in the first post Below is an Amazon dead link -

Yeah, so they just take you to the home page; I see what you're saying. And I don't deny that in the link I posted the OP and two or three responders were not happy about it. I have to agree, I'd like to see the forum be fully transparent about this (if they are not already).

 

[Fish Fan]

Finally! It was indeed at the bottom, but from the R2R TOS:
https://www.reef2reef.com/help/terms/

"Miscellaneous:

• Additional rules may apply to any forum, and will be governed by any sticky thread(s) in that forum.
• This user agreement is subject to change to fit the communities best interest.
• As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. This means I may earn a commission if you click through and make a purchase via links on this site, at no additional cost to you.
• Someone has to interpret the above guidelines and how they apply to this forum. Ultimately it's up to our site administrator to make this decision. If you have any questions about these guidelines, please feel free to contact us. When you create an account to use the forums here you are agreeing to abide by the rules and user agreement of Reef2Reef. All data entered as post, photos, attachments, belong to Reef2Reef and may be used by Reef2Reef to market and promote the community is various ways, etc.
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[ScottJ]

Haha, Amazon does the same thing for me! The way I get it to look "nice and neat" is by typing out "VBR PAR meter on Amazon", then highlighting that text, then clicking the hyperlink button on the toolbar, then I paste the big, long Amazon link in there, and that makes my short text into a clickable link

Please let me know if that didn't make sense

VGR-Aqua IP68 PAR Meter Amazon

SWEET! Thanks @Fish Fan

 

[Fish Fan]

VGR-Aqua IP68 PAR Meter Amazon

SWEET! Thanks @Fish Fan

Anytime!

 

[mcarroll]

I would research that one . Not recommended

As I suggested, look up Dana Riddle. An expert on lighting if our hobby ever had one. He shouldn't be hard to find. He has written books and articles out the wazoo on so many lighting topics it's somewhat dizzying to go through it all. He's been on video several times at (eg) MACNA. He has an account here, too, though he hasn't been active in a little while.

If you want to understand if a lux meter is usable or not, and why (and the other stuff I mentioned) then hopefully you can locate his articles on the topic.

I that reference specifically vs rando intarwebs on the topic, which I can only guess would tell you measuring LUX causes cancer or something else pointless. PAR is the cure!

In a nutshell, a PAR meter is not so different from a LUX meter. PAR meters from not too long ago were *really* not so different....more recent models have definitely been refined by comparison. BUT... If you can't afford a PAR meter (they are expensive) then a PAR meter doesn't help you. A lux meter can do a lot of things that a PAR meter can do. And a lux meter can also be refined (read the articles!).

But if you want a PAR meter and can afford one, then I don't even know why you're reading this. Enjoy your PAR meter. ;)

 

[Rocks reef]

I had an older Apogee from years ago, that one didn't play well with LED lights.

I refuse to spend $500+ on a new Apogee for LED's, so I now have the inexpensive VBR Aqua from Amazon that @Troylee mentioned. It might not be as accurate as the Apogee instruments, but it's great for a rough idea.

VBR Aqua PAR meter on Amazon

I will say that I see the newer Apogee's on the R2R Marketplace frequently enough, if that helps.

I agree with @Fish Fan and @Troylee .
Go with the VBR (Vabira) off Amazon. I have one and use it more than I thought I would.
As mentioned, it is a tool to have in your arsenal.
I’ve seen SO many posts where people ask why corals are slowly dying and/or bleaching and 9 times out of 10, it’s due to not enough light or being fried with too much light.
One caveat with the VBR is you need to multiply the reading by 1.1 to get what an Apogee reads. Definitely not a deal breaker since the VBR is much less expensive than an Apogee.

 

[Peer.Boerner]

I honestly see no practical use. Buy a light and set it up to match the settings that other people are using with that light on similar size tanks.

There are not "target" numbers that are reliable, different brands of meters are going to read differently, by a large margin, add in user error and that it does account for spectrum, and it is a feel good number at best.

Even the idea of "mapping" is a bit useless. Coral are going to grow out of their "mapped" areas, shadow each other, etc.

Higher is more energy, lower less. Directly under the light is more energy, further away less. Shadows less energy, etc, The "number" returned by the meter is rather useless.

Well said. Use your eyes. If you can’t figure out why something is happening through observation, rent one and see what it says.

Interesting anecdote, I rented one fearing my tank was over lit. I took all kinds of PAR readings and mapped them to a photo of my tank. Thought my lights were too bright. Lowered from 70 to 50% to get the numbers in line with typical guidance. Over time coral didn’t look bad but didn’t look and better either. I’ve since slowly raised them back to 65% and will probably slowly go to 70%. The tank is doing great! Moral of the story: your eyes are pretty good judges of what’s going on but use the tool if you’re not sure.

 

[The Farmer]

I would let any respectfully refer borrow my apogee anytime, as long as they understand the you break it you buy it rule. I also don’t mind the frag or 2 for use exchange.

 

[Freenow54]

As I suggested, look up Dana Riddle. An expert on lighting if our hobby ever had one. He shouldn't be hard to find. He has written books and articles out the wazoo on so many lighting topics it's somewhat dizzying to go through it all. He's been on video several times at (eg) MACNA. He has an account here, too, though he hasn't been active in a little while.

If you want to understand if a lux meter is usable or not, and why (and the other stuff I mentioned) then hopefully you can locate his articles on the topic.

I that reference specifically vs rando intarwebs on the topic, which I can only guess would tell you measuring LUX causes cancer or something else pointless. PAR is the cure!

In a nutshell, a PAR meter is not so different from a LUX meter. PAR meters from not too long ago were *really* not so different....more recent models have definitely been refined by comparison. BUT... If you can't afford a PAR meter (they are expensive) then a PAR meter doesn't help you. A lux meter can do a lot of things that a PAR meter can do. And a lux meter can also be refined (read the articles!).

But if you want a PAR meter and can afford one, then I don't even know why you're reading this. Enjoy your PAR meter. ;)

I went through the first page. No Insult to Him but he is Talking about Metal Halide lights . An old subject , are they even available ? I would guess that led was in its infancy at the time. One though explicitly told someone to buy an Apogee 510. As to lux meters I have one cost me $125 . Just so everyone understands an Apogee cost me $ 1200 . I certainly don't see how anyone can compare them. I did not research very far into a Lux meter study . I stopped when I read they are inaccurate , and favor blue , and green , and are of very little value for anything else . I can only assume because of a superior sensor . Lux meters are for plant growers , and deal in the visible light spectrum. To me they don't have to compensate for the variables that I should not have to explain when used in an Aquarium environment. A lux meter only deals it Air. I don't count on absolute accuracy from a Par meter and I don't care . As you are probably aware Par does not have to be a finite number ( which by the way I read dozens of articles , and read the same regarding a Par meter. I am not one to just spend money needlessly. ) Back to use Coral don't need an absolute like I said as you know. I also use my eyes as suggested by Bean Animal . Its interesting to me to see how Par fluctuates when using wave makers , which make them useless and possibly why people blame the par meter and not the set up. Also seeing the effect of lids on the intensity is valuable to me. At least they hopefully eliminate light as the problem , so you can look else where for the issue / issues that exist. I happen to think Parameters are a rabbit hole. I Unlike some I try to make sure People know that I am not a scientist in any field. I have a real hard time excepting statements from those that don't. They are a tool like any tool the user has to be competent which I strive to do. This is meant to help the original person to make a choice by reading both sides of a " Discussion ". Not meant for two people to argue . That is also my Goal. I see lots of People who have the attitude that if someone disagrees with them then they are obviously uneducated , and Ignorant . I again don't care if anyone disagrees with me as long as its helpful to those that are asking advice , or direction

 

[Freenow54]

Well said. Use your eyes. If you can’t figure out why something is happening through observation, rent one and see what it says.

Interesting anecdote, I rented one fearing my tank was over lit. I took all kinds of PAR readings and mapped them to a photo of my tank. Thought my lights were too bright. Lowered from 70 to 50% to get the numbers in line with typical guidance. Over time coral didn’t look bad but didn’t look and better either. I’ve since slowly raised them back to 65% and will probably slowly go to 70%. The tank is doing great! Moral of the story: your eyes are pretty good judges of what’s going on but use the tool if you’re not sure.

I played the same game. Like I suggested maybe the problem is somewhere else. That is why I like to use any tool. Good Luck

 

[oreo54]

I went through the first page. No Insult to Him but he is Talking about Metal Halide lights . An old subject , are they even available ? I would guess that led was in its infancy at the time. One though explicitly told someone to buy an Apogee 510. As to lux meters I have one cost me $125 . Just so everyone understands an Apogee cost me $ 1200 . I certainly don't see how anyone can compare them. I did not research very far into a Lux meter study . I stopped when I read they are inaccurate , and favor blue , and green , and are of very little value for anything else . I can only assume because of a superior sensor . Lux meters are for plant growers , and deal in the visible light spectrum. To me they don't have to compensate for the variables that I should not have to explain when used in an Aquarium environment. A lux meter only deals it Air. I don't count on absolute accuracy from a Par meter and I don't care . As you are probably aware Par does not have to be a finite number ( which by the way I read dozens of articles , and read the same regarding a Par meter. I am not one to just spend money needlessly. ) Back to use Coral don't need an absolute like I said as you know. I also use my eyes as suggested by Bean Animal . Its interesting to me to see how Par fluctuates when using wave makers , which make them useless and possibly why people blame the par meter and not the set up. Also seeing the effect of lids on the intensity is valuable to me. At least they hopefully eliminate light as the problem , so you can look else where for the issue / issues that exist. I happen to think Parameters are a rabbit hole. I Unlike some I try to make sure People know that I am not a scientist in any field. I have a real hard time excepting statements from those that don't. They are a tool like any tool the user has to be competent which I strive to do. This is meant to help the original person to make a choice by reading both sides of a " Discussion ". Not meant for two people to argue . That is also my Goal. I see lots of People who have the attitude that if someone disagrees with them then they are obviously uneducated , and Ignorant . I again don't care if anyone disagrees with me as long as its helpful to those that are asking advice , or direction

OK too much "not quite right".
Lux meters are designed for human vision, not plants, not corals, ect
Their sensitivity is like this. See dotted line,

par is defined by the white lines.

A typical lux sensor uses a green filter to concentrate on the light "we" favor.
Which is why it make it difficult to use for reef lighting that is predominantly blue.
Some remove it to get closer to recording more blue light but of course you need to calibrate the "new"
sensor.
Some photodiodes are sort of naturally sensitive in the lux range so no filters necessary.
an expensive sensor design for par:

Before the "cheap" par meters came about there were plenty of attempts at coming up with a correction factor for lux meters. And many worked just fine. But of course somebody needed to measure actual par to create it.
Please note your eyes are also terrible at determine the "brightness" of predominantly blue light.

I think the "what your eye sees" refer more to coral responses and "calibate" your lights to that.
Again your eyes are horrible at determining brightness especially between different spectrums
and spectrums heavy in the weaker parts like blue and red.
BRS did a vid on "experts" that used just their vision and experience to determine par levels.

AI is probably a bit harsh but not far from the truth:

AI Overview


In the reef-keeping hobby (frequently discussed by Bulk Reef Supply / BRStv), determining PAR levels by sight is impossible. Human eyes are very poor judges of light intensity and wavelength energy in an aquarium. [1]

Now to give you an idea of the "correction factors" problems:
https://www.waveformlighting.com/horticulture/convert-lux-to-ppfd-online-calculator

1000 Lux of a 6500k low cri led converted to par is estimated at 13.4 (divide lux by 74.6)
pure 450nm led blue 1000 lux is 115 par (divide lux by 8.69)

Soo most "normal "reef lights will fall in-between that conversion factor of say 9 ( pure actinic ) to 75 ( daylight ) depending on the quantity of blue light (red being generally a small component).

Many used like 67..
Yea and most lux meters aren't waterproof which is an issue.

Another table..

 

[BeanAnimal]

The subject is frustrating and prolific. It assumes that a PAR meter reads some metric that can be correlated to some actionable target.

The point is not that your “eyes” are better at reading light levels. it is that the PAR meter doesn’t account for spectrum differences, there is no reliable target, and device differences, use differences, and numerous other variables mean that, even if there were a reliable target for a specific spectral mix, you could still easily be 20% or more off.

The tool is a toy promoted as a must have reefing instrument. For the purpose most people buy one for, it is useless. It can tell you that one spot has more or less measured light than another under the same spectrum, but it cannot tell you whether either spot is right for a particular coral. You should (and will) move and acclimate coral by how it responds, not by what some random meter measuring some random spectrum under some random conditions says.

 

[Peer.Boerner]

OK too much "not quite right".
Lux meters are designed for human vision, not plants, not corals, ect
Their sensitivity is like this. See dotted line,

par is defined by the white lines.

A typical lux sensor uses a green filter to concentrate on the light "we" favor.
Which is why it make it difficult to use for reef lighting that is predominantly blue.
Some remove it to get closer to recording more blue light but of course you need to calibrate the "new"
sensor.
Some photodiodes are sort of naturally sensitive in the lux range so no filters necessary.
an expensive sensor design for par:

Before the "cheap" par meters came about there were plenty of attempts at coming up with a correction factor for lux meters. And many worked just fine. But of course somebody needed to measure actual par to create it.
Please note your eyes are also terrible at determine the "brightness" of predominantly blue light.

I think the "what your eye sees" refer more to coral responses and "calibate" your lights to that.
Again your eyes are horrible at determining brightness especially between different spectrums
and spectrums heavy in the weaker parts like blue and red.
BRS did a vid on "experts" that used just their vision and experience to determine par levels.

AI is probably a bit harsh but not far from the truth:



Now to give you an idea of the "correction factors" problems:
https://www.waveformlighting.com/horticulture/convert-lux-to-ppfd-online-calculator

1000 Lux of a 6500k low cri led converted to par is estimated at 13.4 (divide lux by 74.6)
pure 450nm led blue 1000 lux is 115 par (divide lux by 8.69)

Soo most "normal "reef lights will fall in-between that conversion factor of say 9 ( pure actinic ) to 75 ( daylight ) depending on the quantity of blue light (red being generally a small component).

Many used like 67..
Yea and most lux meters aren't waterproof which is an issue.

Another table..

Thanks for the write up. Wow!