Parameter measurement w/ Apex, Trident: WAG?

[mdowney]

I’ve only been back in reefing for seven months after a long break and I work in tech so when I got back in, I went full bore into automation, spending thousands. After six months of diligent troubleshooting, regular sensor maintenance, and recalibration, I’ve concluded that the Apex probes and Trident tests are no better than Wild A** Guesses. The data is all over the place. I’ve kept a log using controls based on manual tests and at any given point, at least two of my Neptune measurements are WAY off.

For example: right now Apex is telling me my salinity is 1.3ppt (it’s 34.8), my Trident has calcium at 663 (it’s 442), and Mag at 1121 (it’s in the 1350 range).

So I go through and re-calibrate, start getting more normal numbers again, then hope it’s obvious when the fall out of whack again.

My question: is this normal? Am I just setting my expectations too high? Because I feel like $3000 worth of measuring equipment should be at least kind of accurate most of the time.

Note: I did spend a few hundred more for the third-party salinity probe tool that pumps water past the probe and I’ll be setting that up this week. All of my probes are positioned right after the filter roller in high flow before it spills into the refugium and I clean them every couple of weeks.

 

[areefer01]

I don't see any of those issues. Can't speak for others.

 

[areefer01]

I also understand I didn't answer your question. I'm sorry. I'm actually not sure if I have one outside I do not see that with my Apex or Trident.

Your Ca is high and I would say out of range. Especially if you compared it to manual test.

1. Have you calibrated it
2. Are these numbers after the calibration
3. Have you used the left over calibration fluid and run manual tests (Alk, Ca at least)
4. Have you run a manual Trident test using a reference solution

Outside of that you may have said but is your dosing line away from your Trident draw line?

 

[mdowney]

I also understand I didn't answer your question. I'm sorry. I'm actually not sure if I have one outside I do not see that with my Apex or Trident.

Your Ca is high and I would say out of range. Especially if you compared it to manual test.

1. Have you calibrated it
2. Are these numbers after the calibration
3. Have you used the left over calibration fluid and run manual tests (Alk, Ca at least)
4. Have you run a manual Trident test using a reference solution

Outside of that you may have said but is your dosing line away from your Trident draw line?

Thanks. I have calibrated the Apex probes and the Trident at least twice. Salinity I’ve done four or five times. I haven’t done a reference solution test. Can you please expand on that?

I think ny Trident line does draw from my return chamber, which is also where I dose, but my dosing runs from 7am to 9am and I only dose Alk and Mag. I don’t think my Trident is sampling near those hours but I will check that. I’ll prob just move the Trident line over to the first chamber and see if I get different results.

 

[Gtinnel]

I’ve had mixed results with my apex and trident. On the trident I’ve always had some difference between my calcium and magnesium readings and my other test kits. The alkalinity for me has always been pretty spot on compared to my other tests though.
My salinity has always been pretty close if you ignore the occasional inaccurate drop to insanely low values. My pH is about .2 lower than my other tests regardless of how many times I calibrate, but for all I know the apex is the one that is right.

 

[Jon's Reef]

Below are some pics of my sensor outputs. The things I have found success with:

1. Flow over the probes is very important
2. No bubbles near the probes
3. Cleaning the probes with a 30 min citric acid soak if odd numbers start showing up
4. Calibrate the trident to the tank water (Test the tank water with your trusted test, For me that is Hanna Alk, RS Pro Ca and Mag). I have tried the white bottle of reference solution many times... and I just get better results with the tank water.
5. I also use tank water to calibrate the salinity probe. I use a Hanna to get the tank to exactly 35 ppt (which I have validated with both the hanna solution and RHF's morton salt solution)

Salinity (On May 7 I did some work in the tank and lowered the salinity slightly)

PH:

ORP (May 3 uptick from installing UV sterilizer)

Temp:

Alk (Trident controlled dosing enabled with target of 8.0)

Ca

Mg

 

[areefer01]

Thanks. I have calibrated the Apex probes and the Trident at least twice. Salinity I’ve done four or five times. I haven’t done a reference solution test. Can you please expand on that?

Yes, let me try. Each 2 month reagent box has 1 calibration solution. It has a lot number, dkH, Ca, and Mg value. This is what you enter into the fusion calibration task. The left over solution you can use in other manual test kits and compare.

Hanna ALK - draw 10 ml from the Trident calibration instead of using display water and run the test. The numbers should be close to the dkH value on the Trident calibration bottle. You can do the same with the Ca value test kit you have.

Basically you save the left over solution after calibration and then use your manual kits. The solution is a one time use so I will do this right after I run the calibration so I don't have any concerns about expiration, etc. I've actually used them after a month as well but prefer right after.

Note we are not chasing numbers. We are just testing the calibration fluid to see if it is close. If the manual test results come back within their respected margin of error then you will know there could be an issue with the Trident.

Hopefully this makes sense. There is also a multi reference solution from Fauna Marin which I use to calibrate my Trident or use as a reference with my Hanna kits.

 

[Betex]

I found the calibration fluid they provide to be garbage, I calibrate it using Fauna Marin Maulti reference, each bottle lasts 2 calibrations and works perfectly every time.

Multi-Reference Calibration Solution (100 ml) Works with Trident - Fauna Marin

Shop The Best Saltwater Aquarium Equipment & Supplies at Saltwater Aquarium. We Carry Everything you will Need for your Fish Tank.

www.saltwateraquarium.com

 

[areefer01]

I found the calibration fluid they provide to be garbage, I calibrate it using Fauna Marin Maulti reference, each bottle lasts 2 calibrations and works perfectly every time.

Multi-Reference Calibration Solution (100 ml) Works with Trident - Fauna Marin

Shop The Best Saltwater Aquarium Equipment & Supplies at Saltwater Aquarium. We Carry Everything you will Need for your Fish Tank.

www.saltwateraquarium.com

I've also had consistent results with Neptunes bottle as well. Having said that I do keep FM's bottle on hand as another known source. It also lasts 6 months after opening.

 

[mdowney]

I’ve had mixed results with my apex and trident. On the trident I’ve always had some difference between my calcium and magnesium readings and my other test kits. The alkalinity for me has always been pretty spot on compared to my other tests though.
My salinity has always been pretty close if you ignore the occasional inaccurate drop to insanely low values. My pH is about .2 lower than my other tests regardless of how many times I calibrate, but for all I know the apex is the one that is right.

Yeah I think Alk is the only measurement I haven’t had any major problems with either.

 

[mdowney]

Below are some pics of my sensor outputs. The things I have found success with:

1. Flow over the probes is very important
2. No bubbles near the probes
3. Cleaning the probes with a 30 min citric acid soak if odd numbers start showing up
4. Calibrate the trident to the tank water (Test the tank water with your trusted test, For me that is Hanna Alk, RS Pro Ca and Mag). I have tried the white bottle of reference solution many times... and I just get better results with the tank water.
5. I also use tank water to calibrate the salinity probe. I use a Hanna to get the tank to exactly 35 ppt (which I have validated with both the hanna solution and RHF's morton salt solution)

Salinity (On May 7 I did some work in the tank and lowered the salinity slightly)

PH:

ORP (May 3 uptick from installing UV sterilizer)

Temp:

Alk (Trident controlled dosing enabled with target of 8.0)

Ca

Mg

This is awesome. Thanks! I’ll try all of this.

 

[mdowney]

Yes, let me try. Each 2 month reagent box has 1 calibration solution. It has a lot number, dkH, Ca, and Mg value. This is what you enter into the fusion calibration task. The left over solution you can use in other manual test kits and compare.

Hanna ALK - draw 10 ml from the Trident calibration instead of using display water and run the test. The numbers should be close to the dkH value on the Trident calibration bottle. You can do the same with the Ca value test kit you have.

Basically you save the left over solution after calibration and then use your manual kits. The solution is a one time use so I will do this right after I run the calibration so I don't have any concerns about expiration, etc. I've actually used them after a month as well but prefer right after.

Note we are not chasing numbers. We are just testing the calibration fluid to see if it is close. If the manual test results come back within their respected margin of error then you will know there could be an issue with the Trident.

Hopefully this makes sense. There is also a multi reference solution from Fauna Marin which I use to calibrate my Trident or use as a reference with my Hanna kits.

Ok thanks. This is great advice. I had tested against the reference calibration fluid but I’ll try the other methods too.

 

[mdowney]

I found the calibration fluid they provide to be garbage, I calibrate it using Fauna Marin Maulti reference, each bottle lasts 2 calibrations and works perfectly every time.

Multi-Reference Calibration Solution (100 ml) Works with Trident - Fauna Marin

Shop The Best Saltwater Aquarium Equipment & Supplies at Saltwater Aquarium. We Carry Everything you will Need for your Fish Tank.

www.saltwateraquarium.com

Awesome! Thanks - I’ll pick that up.

 

[Gtinnel]

I don’t calibrate my trident with the reference solution. I just test my water multiple times with a couple different brands of tests kits and use those values when “calibrating” my trident. I’ve not been impressed with the apex calibration solution.

 

[mdowney]

By the way, what value do you guys get from the ORP measurement? How do you use that data?

 

[Jon's Reef]

By the way, what value do you guys get from the ORP measurement? How do you use that data?

It is a measure of the Oxidation Reduction Potential in the system.

Oxygen, ozone, peroxide help to break up big organic molecules like fish waste and food. The oxygen type compounds are known as oxidizers... the organics are reducers (there are other things that are oxidizers and reducers too). A higher number means that there are more oxidizers present. A lower number means that there are more reducers. Typical values are in the 200-450 range. Higher than that and the oxidizers might start attacking beneficial living things. Too low means that the water is dirty. An example of manipulating ORP is using an Ozone generator. Typically those setups have an ORP probe to control the amount of ozone being put into the water.

Since pH is a measure of H+... that also influences the ORP value, so you will typically see pH and ORP go up and down in an inverse relationship.

I use it for trending. It should be relatively stable. If you see it change a lot... then something happened in the tank. If it dropped... maybe an auto feeder is stuck on... or a fish died.