Pelagic Bacteria Counts & BART Heterotrophic Aerobic Bacteria (HAB) test

[Mortie31]

I believe so.


well its all about pelagic bacteria. How much is good/bad? The Petcha.com article says ""More work needs to be done, but preliminary data suggest that in general natural coral reefs have lower bacteria levels than most reef aquariums. More importantly, healthy reef aquariums seem to have a lower bacteria level than unhealthy reef aquariums."
if "any stress on a coral, whether it be temperature or pH related, or due to any other cause, increases pathogens/virulent bacteria" then reducing bacteria, using whatever method is a positive.

I can see how you arrive at that conclusion, but it’s one sketchy paper, and they make no mention of types of bacteria and if or not the higher levels actually had a causative effect. I don’t think the link you make is valid at this point in time and with such limited information as there are completely conflicting results between Bart and Feldman that you posted. Feldman says levels are 1/10th in a healthy aquarium than that of natural reefs.
However I think more filters feeders and diversity in our tanks can only be a good thing...

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I can see how you arrive at that conclusion, but it’s one sketchy paper, and they make no mention of types of bacteria and if or not the higher levels actually had a causative effect. I don’t think the link you make is valid at this point in time and with such limited information as there are completely conflicting results between Bart and Feldman that you posted. Feldman says levels are 1/10th in a healthy aquarium than that of natural reefs.
However I think more filters feeders and diversity in our tanks can only be a good thing...

Sanjay's sps tank has low count. Pretty successful tank.

 

[Mortie31]

Sanjay's sps tank has low count. Pretty successful tank.

Exactly... which is why I asked why do u want to reduce bacteria, there’s nothing of notable conclusion in any of the studies discussed, to support high or low levels being good or bad, just different to observed levels from natural reefs, but that’s true of most things in out artificial glass boxes. From what I’ve read the papers suggest more strongly that bacteria levels are to low in our aquariums.. or do you think your tank isn’t clean and the clams would help?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Sanjay's sps tank has low count. Pretty successful tank.

Exactly... which is why I asked why do u want to reduce bacteria

Because Sanjay's sps tank has low count. Pretty successful tank.

What do you believe is a positive function of having a high water column bacteria count ?

 

[Mortie31]

Sanjay's sps tank has low count. Pretty successful tank.


Because Sanjay's sps tank has low count. Pretty successful tank.

What do you believe is a positive function of having a high water column bacteria count ?

I think your miss understanding me, I’m not saying high is good, I’m saying the Feldman paper says in clean tanks bacteria levels were low.
So if you know/ think your tanks “dirty” then yes lower it if you want, but I personally wouldn’t do anything based on these papers.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I think your miss understanding me, I’m not saying high is good, I’m saying the Feldman paper says in clean tanks bacteria levels were low.
So if you know/ think your tanks “dirty” then yes lower it if you want, but I personally wouldn’t do anything based on these papers.

I don't disagree with what your saying.
It's a bit of an unknown. But if low DOC & inorganic nutrient levels are desirable in an aquarium, then low water column bacteria levels would be a result of that.
How low is too low & what would the effect of this be?

 

[Mortie31]

I don't disagree with what your saying.
It's a bit of an unknown. But if low DOC & inorganic nutrient levels are desirable in an aquarium, then low water column bacteria levels would be a result of that.
How low is too low & what would the effect of this be?

Its still an emerging science, will be interesting to see how the knowledge base builds. Also how do different bacteria levels effect different types of corals, is high better for softies and NPS and low for SPS? possibly but I’m sure research will let us now... I know several NPS keepers are looking at palagic Cyanobacteria as a food source and how to potentially to cultivate it.. I think #Lasse has tried this or is trying.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Also experts agree that in Reefs there is less phytoplankton and DOC. Then in non Reef areas. I think someone's eating all that phytoplankton and DOC. Guess who?

 

[Sallstrom]

I believe too much DOC and/or high levels of bacteria might cause things like brown jelly disease. But that's just from personal experiences, just guessing that it's high bacteria load(old tank, stirred sand bed).

On the other hand bacteria is food for a lot of reef animals so a too low levels might be bad too. Cyanobacteria like Synechococcus and Prochlorococcus are among the most common phytoplankton for example.

So it would be a good think to be able to measure for sure. Maybe the DOC levels decide the bacteria amount(if there's N and P available)? If so, the Triton N-DOC test gives a clue on the bacteria levels.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Its still an emerging science, will be interesting to see how the knowledge base builds. Also how do different bacteria levels effect different types of corals, is high better for softies and NPS and low for SPS? possibly but I’m sure research will let us now... I know several NPS keepers are looking at palagic Cyanobacteria as a food source and how to potentially to cultivate it.. I think #Lasse has tried this or is trying.

NPS certainly need a view from a different perspective

After doing my homework on filter feeders. I went to each Market in my area and bought a dozen or less oysters. None of these survived . Even though they were Pacific oysters . Until I came across an Asian market the had oysters in a mesh plastic bag. Only Market that sold them this way. The brand was sol azul, baja, ca. I think out of a hundred and fifty oysters, 80 survived. These are Pacific oysters, very Hardy. I did lower my temperature in tank to 74? I mainly put them in refugium. Some for awhike in DT. Great addition, for filtration.

What became of them?
Did you succumb to temptation & eat them with a nice chianti?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

NPS certainly need a view from a different perspective

What became of them?
Did you succumb to temptation & eat them with a nice chianti?

Sorry, I don't eat my children of the sea not that type of a father. Who eats there children? Anyway. The issues I was having is even with oysters and refugium couldn't keep up with nitrates and po4. Now I figure it out that if I flood feed in other words fill tank with food then stop wait one hour or 2 hours then do it again. This does not put a heavy load on filtration and corals enjoy still. Eventually, I will set up another refugium with oysters and see what happens. I think with oysters in tank with Corals. Corals may get trick into thinking there in their natural environment. Also with tank number 4 that I set up, I'm using unfiltered ocean water. We shall see.

What became of them the oysters. After losing the corals with the oysters, I decided to set up tank #2 , moved oysters to it and ordered a new batch of corals see if they perform better, wasn't the case. Loss oysters in tank#2. Tank number 3 I've gotten better results but not a hundred percent.

 

[Jason mack]

I'm very interested in this ...I've bee having problems with my tank for a few months now ...its started when I used vibrant to rid my tank from a bubble algea infestation...this worked but I ended up with a bad cyno bacteria ..finally got rid of that ....after nearly crashing my tank with a product called mysicodol....but cyno gone ..now in place of the cyno I have dinos ....my tank looks like $%!¥ and I've lost nearly all my sps...I'm al.ost at my wits end now .....

 

[Lasse]

IMO - the title of this thread is a little bit misleading. The HAB-BART test does not addresses only pelagic bacteria, and also not all types of pelagic bacteria. It adress heterotrophic bacteria regardless if they are free swimming or attaching bacteria. Further on - it not adress the most common pelagic bacteria of all in the sea - the small pelagic cyanobacteria spc.
Hence a HAB BART test out in the sea will show the low count of true pelagic heterotrophs, the low count of heterotrophs bounded to organic particles low count because lack of enough of organic paricles and miss the most common pelagic sea bacteria - the cyanobacteria.

In a reef aquaria a HAB BART test will show a high count of heterotrophic bacteria bound to organic particles in biofilms. With other words - you counting bananas in Guatemala and apples in Sweden and try to do conclusions of this.

With this - I do not say that a HAB BART test in an aquaria is worthless but I think that the results is valid only for this aquaria and done during time.

As I understand - the blue colour is an indicator of viable oxygen for the aerobic growth of the bacteria. There is also a substrate in the test tubes so if the test will indicate true pelagic heterotrophic bacteria at all can be asked.

What I have understand - every test tube will contain x mg oxygen (after shaking) When oxygen level is zero - the blue colour has fade away and the time it took - is a relative measurement for how many bacteria there was in the original sample.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I'm very interested in this ...I've bee having problems with my tank for a few months now ...its started when I used vibrant to rid my tank from a bubble algea infestation...this worked but I ended up with a bad cyno bacteria ..finally got rid of that ....after nearly crashing my tank with a product called mysicodol....but cyno gone ..now in place of the cyno I have dinos ....my tank looks like $%!¥ and I've lost nearly all my sps...I'm al.ost at my wits end now .....

Sorry to hear this & I hope you can sort it out soon. How old was your system when the bubble algae began?

 

[Jason mack]

Sorry to hear this & I hope you can sort it out soon. How old was your system when the bubble algae began?

It was about 1.5 years ...tank will be 2 years old in January

 

[Jason mack]

Sorry to hear this & I hope you can sort it out soon. How old was your system when the bubble algae began?

I'm going too do a 50% water change next week and then send a Triton test off ...

 

[Scrubber_steve]

IMO - the title of this thread is a little bit misleading. The HAB-BART test does not addresses only pelagic bacteria, and also not all types of pelagic bacteria. It adress heterotrophic bacteria regardless if they are free swimming or attaching bacteria. Further on - it not adress the most common pelagic bacteria of all in the sea - the small pelagic cyanobacteria spc.
Hence a HAB BART test out in the sea will show the low count of true pelagic heterotrophs, the low count of heterotrophs bounded to organic particles low count because lack of enough of organic paricles and miss the most common pelagic sea bacteria - the cyanobacteria.

In a reef aquaria a HAB BART test will show a high count of heterotrophic bacteria bound to organic particles in biofilms. With other words - you counting bananas in Guatemala and apples in Sweden and try to do conclusions of this.

With this - I do not say that a HAB BART test in an aquaria is worthless but I think that the results is valid only for this aquaria and done during time.

As I understand - the blue colour is an indicator of viable oxygen for the aerobic growth of the bacteria. There is also a substrate in the test tubes so if the test will indicate true pelagic heterotrophic bacteria at all can be asked.

What I have understand - every test tube will contain x mg oxygen (after shaking) When oxygen level is zero - the blue colour has fade away and the time it took - is a relative measurement for how many bacteria there was in the original sample.

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks for this input Lasse.
So the Hab test result will vary significantly? from test to test due to test tube itself.
If the test could be made accurately it would measure heterotrophic bacteria only. This would include virulent bacteria, but could not distinguish between virulent bacteria & good?
The levelof DOC directly relates to levels of heterotrophic bacteria.

Do you believe bacteria count has any significance in aquarium health? Can it be too high or too low?

.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

It was about 1.5 years ...tank will be 2 years old in January

Did the bubble come along with a new coral perhaps, or was it in the system already?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I knew they were talking about heterotrophic bac.
Thats why i mention sponge in tank.
I knew it

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Sorry, I don't eat my children of the sea not that type of a father. Who eats there children? Anyway. The issues I was having is even with oysters and refugium couldn't keep up with nitrates and po4. Now I figure it out that if I flood feed in other words fill tank with food then stop wait one hour or 2 hours then do it again. This does not put a heavy load on filtration and corals enjoy still. Eventually, I will set up another refugium with oysters and see what happens. I think with oysters in tank with Corals. Corals may get trick into thinking there in their natural environment. Also with tank number 4 that I set up, I'm using unfiltered ocean water. We shall see.

What became of them the oysters. After losing the corals with the oysters, I decided to set up tank #2 , moved oysters to it and ordered a new batch of corals see if they perform better, wasn't the case. Loss oysters in tank#2. Tank number 3 I've gotten better results but not a hundred percent.

so you need to feed the oysters ? This polutes the water? Do they need light? Hi tide low tide?